csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:07 am Post subject: Fire Canoe?
I was reading "Steamboats & Modern Steam Launches" the other day and saw a couple of interesting articles on the "Fire Canoe".
Does anybody know if she was still in operation and under the same owner? I would love to learn some more specifics about her design and operation.
-Mike
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87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead
Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject:
I *think* the original hull was used as a plug for a fiberglass version, as the original wood hull had seen better days.
http://www.steamboating.de/boats/fic-main.html
You may want to look at the northwest steam society's website, specifically their member's list.
http://www.northweststeamsociety.org/Pa ... eamers.htm
OR you can contact Artemis on the board here as he is from the Pacific Northwest and is very knowledgeable about the boats in that area.
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON
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csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:31 pm Post subject:
I love that old surf boat hull style! The book isn't too specific on the setup but it looks like it was a fine ship!
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csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject:
Looks like those boats were used by the coast guard all through out the 30s and 40s: http://www.uscg.mil/history/WEBORALHIST ... hoto_2.asp
Looks like they were rugged little craft! I'm looking for a hull that could deal with the chop on Lake Superior and this one looks type looks like it might fit the bill!
87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead
Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:36 pm Post subject:
I *think* they're selling fiberglass versions of the hull.. I need to see if I can get ahold of a few people who might be "in the know"
_________________
Wesley Harcourt
-S.L. Wayward Belle (Mr. Grosjean was/is a genius.)
-S.L. George H. Sandin (Father's boat. Cut my teeth on that one.)
-'64 Buick Riviera
-'65 Buick Special WAGON
csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject:
http://www.mosquitoenterprises.com/ sells them I think but they're glass not wood:
Length Overall - 26 feet
Length Waterline - 24 feet
Beam - 8 feet
Draft - 2.5 feet
Weight - 1,000 lbs. ( bare hull )
Speed - 7+ knots with a 14HP engine
Propeller - 23" dia. maximum
Sheesh! That's a lot of horsepower! I think I remember reading that the Fire Canoe has/had a 4hp. I'm curious to find out more about it. It would be a shame if she was out of commission...
barts
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Menlo Park, CA
Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject:
csonics wrote:
http://www.mosquitoenterprises.com/ sells them I think but they're glass not wood:
Length Overall - 26 feet
Length Waterline - 24 feet
Beam - 8 feet
Draft - 2.5 feet
Weight - 1,000 lbs. ( bare hull )
Speed - 7+ knots with a 14HP engine
Propeller - 23" dia. maximum
Sheesh! That's a lot of horsepower! I think I remember reading that the Fire Canoe has/had a 4hp. I'm curious to find out more about it. It would be a shame if she was out of commission...
Fire Canoe was Tommy Thompson's boat. He died in 1999, and he built Fire Canoe as a mechanical engineering student at UW in 1949 - 60 years ago now. I met Tommy while he was working on his beautiful steam railway in Anacortes, WA, and got a chance to ride a few times; Fire Canoe was long gone by then AFAIK.
Wooden boats take consistent, deliberate care - and even then don't last forever. Coast Guard surf boats were not heavily built, either...
http://www.cimorelli.com/cgi-bin/magell ... ShipName=F
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/tomm01.shtml
http://www.uscg.mil/history/WEBORALHIST ... hoto_2.asp
http://books.google.com/books?id=-w5CAA ... q=&f=false
- Bart
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Bart Smaalders
S.L Otter
Menlo Park, CA
csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:02 am Post subject:
Bart, thanks for the info! Wow! That's a shame that she is out of commission... I was hoping to see her one day but I guess I'll have to be satisfied with the pictures... So this may sound like an ignorant question but you mentioned that the original surf boats were not as sturdy as one might think. Would you say that durability was improved upon by the folks at mosquito enterprises?
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csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:04 am Post subject:
"Tommy Thompson, Jr., a steamboat enthusiast and then a mechanical engineering student at the University of Washington, completed the conversion of a surplus Coast Guard surf boat into the 28-foot steamboat Fire Canoe. Powered by an ancient 40-horsepower steam engine builtin England and formerly in use on Lake Ontario, the tiny woodburner is still in use by Thompson in the San Juan Island area. Gordon Newell, Maritime events of 1949, H.W. McCurdy Marine History of the Pacific Northwest. Seattle: Superior Publishing Company, 1966., p. 562."
Wow according to this she used a 40hp engine! Is that right? She must have used a LOT of fuel since she was a wood burner.
barts
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Menlo Park, CA
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:27 am Post subject:
csonics wrote:
Wow according to this she used a 40hp engine! Is that right? She must have used a LOT of fuel since she was a wood burner.
I'd guess that was off by a factor of ten or so ....
You couldn't practically carry that much wood in a 26 foot boat.
Appropriate levels of powering for a steam launch are 1.5 to 3 hp per ton of displacement.
Fire Canoe prob. had a gross displacement of two tons, so 3 to 6 hp would have been fine.
Our 19' launch Otter prob. displaces some 1500 lbs fully loaded, and has a bit over two hp when all is well w/ the plant.
- Bart
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Bart Smaalders
S.L Otter
Menlo Park, CA
csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:41 am Post subject:
Bart, thanks for that confirmation. I thought that sounded a bit off. I wonder what Tommy did with her old engine and boiler...
farmerden
Warming the Engine
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject:
Ask a question on this site and you will get at least 10 answers! He used to beach the ol' girl whenever he needed firewood.They just loaded her up with driftwood and carried on. The salt wood was tough on boilers so they would just build another . This group was pure talent when it came to steam! The "Fire Canoe" Is now resting on one of the San Juan Islands -Engine and boiler and rigging removed. In the background see her bow
sonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject:
Den,
Wow! That's too bad... Is her hull in that bad-shape? I love that paint detail on her bow! Any idea what happened to her boiler and engine? Did the put them in another boat?
-Mike
farmerden
Warming the Engine
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:23 pm Post subject:
I'm not sure what happened to the engine or boiler but the hull being wood is slowly wearing out -kinda like us! The "Mosquito" is a similar hull but now made of fiberglass. Yes the West Coast Native Art on the hull looks great! It's a step away from traditional steam boat paint schemes but in this case -perfect! I've never seen it down before or since.There have been many write-ups in the steam books about the boat and it was interesting to watch the evolution of his boiler the last being built specifically for the rough ocean she travelled on Den
dampfspieler
Just Starting Out
Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 6
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:59 pm Post subject: New steam landing boats of the US Navy
Hi,
i've found an article in the journal of the "society of german engineers" from 1896 about the "New steam landing boots of the US Navy". There is a good description of the hull, the engine and the boiler.
The engine is a 10 hp-compound (very nice and delicate) and the boiler a ward-type (looks like e round birdcage). The engine is very strong but the boats were also used as a tug for some rowboats in landing operations.
I'll scan it and then post some pictures.
Dietrich
barts
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 02 May 2009
Posts: 32
Location: Menlo Park, CA
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:40 am Post subject:
Well, I've walked around on that island perhaps 15 years ago during a steam mini-meet there one July Fourth IIRC; I don't remember seeing Fire Canoe but I do remember all the track, mini sawmill. etc.
I hope to get Otter up into the San Juan again soon.
-= Bart
_________________
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Bart Smaalders
S.L Otter
Menlo Park, CA
csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:32 am Post subject:
Dietrich: thanks! I would very much appreciate getting a look at that article!
Den: Your right about that art not being standard but in this case perfect for her! I wonder who the artist was. Do you think it was Tommy?
Bart: Looks like Den's picture is more recent then the that. I'll be you'll find her if you make it up there in the future.
-Mike
dampfspieler
Just Starting Out
Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 6
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: Ward-Boiler
Hi Mike,
here are some pics of the boiler. The shell could set airtight and a separate steam-engine-driven-fan produces "Unterwind" (dont know the right word) for rapid firing up and a better combustion.
The water tubes were screwed into the foundation ring and also the top bottle.
A combination of some sheets in the top bottle prevent the steam from water, because there is no superheater.
Best Dietrich
csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:21 am Post subject:
Thanks Dietrich! I'd love to see the articles/scans of the engine and hull as well if it's not too much trouble. I really appreciate it!
This may sound like an ignorant questions but, how hard would a modern fabrication of this boiler be?
Dietrich: does the article give any specifics/dimensions?
-Mike
dampfspieler
Just Starting Out
Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 6
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:11 pm Post subject:
Hi Mike,
all dimensions of the hull, engines and boiler are given in the article.
The article is written basically of the "Annual report of the chief of the bureau of steam engineering for the year 1889", sheets 39 to 42.
Here is the machine (102 + 178 x 126 mm).
The complete article is zipped. If you are interested send me a PN.
I think a ward boiler to built is as easy as one other watertube boiler. It is necessary to calculate carefully. I would built it from copper and silver solder or weld it.
Here you can see one of my last projects (built for a friend), a watertube boiler with a heating surface of 22 sq. ft.
Best Dietrich
csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:42 pm Post subject:
pm sent. Thanks Dietrich!
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csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:44 pm Post subject:
Man, I wish I could read German! Looks like it's a great article!
csonics
Lighting the Boiler
Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Posts: 42
Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:14 am Post subject:
Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:30 pm Post subject:
Ask a question on this site and you will get at least 10 answers! He used to beach the ol' girl whenever he needed firewood.They just loaded her up with driftwood and carried on. The salt wood was tough on boilers so they would just build another . This group was pure talent when it came to steam! The "Fire Canoe" Is now resting on one of the San Juan Islands -Engine and boiler and rigging removed. In the background see her bow
Hey Den,
Any idea what the specs were on the most recent boiler that she had? I recently read that wood burning boilers do better with close to double the recommended surface area that coal or oil would use. I'm curious as to what kind of boiler worked the best for Fire Canoe.
-Mike
