PDF Book on Triple and Quadruple Expansion engines

[DetroiTug]

Quote: "I wish you luck running lake water non-condensing. Just because it looks clear doesn't mean that it isn't loaded with gunk."

I agree, it's not very good water from a boiler-water quality standpoint. At the end of a run, I pull the fire and leave a bed of embers and then blow completely down with the boiler still hot, this evaporates any remaining water. All the valves are opened to allow air to flow through and this is how it is laid up. On the trailer, I've seen it and it looks brown like mud.

On the steamcar, I run only city water and it is non-condensing as well. After an hour or two of running (about 20 gallons from the daytank)I blow down and it looks like black paint coming out. Once cooled, I've felt of it to see if it was gritty-like millshale coming off the inside of the new boiler surfaces, it's not. Not sure what it is, but it looks as though city water has considerable baddies in it too and quite a bit of it.

Of course this is Detroit "city water" , so anything is possible Seriously though, federal inspectors checked Detroit water after the Flint, Mi debacle and found it to be very good quality. Incidentally, what caused the Flint water crisis was when they switched from the Detroit system and tried to use their own to save money. Antiquated treatment process, lead pipes etc.

-Ron

[Lopez Mike]

I get that same black looking stuff in my hot well filter. Not enough to cause any problem but on the white filter media it stands out. I've assumed that it was maybe carbon from cylinder wear. Hard to see how it could be carrying over from the boiler but I do force things pretty hard on occasion.

[fredrosse]

"maybe carbon from cylinder wear."

Are you thinking IC engines here? I would not think carbon would be coming out of a steam engine, unless of course you have enough superheat to crack (decompose) your steam cylinder oil.

[Lopez Mike]

The last time I looked at cast iron it was full of carbon inclusions. Characteristic of the breed. Purported to be a big reason that iron on iron wears so well and often gets by with only water for lubricant.

Of course the fact that iron on iron wears so well makes my guess that the black stuff might be carbon a lot less likely. But I do wonder why a well broken in cylinder wall is gloss black. I would suspect that the black on the cylinder wall was carbonized lubricant except that I have see more than one small engine that has spent it's whole running life with fifty p.s.i. steam and zero lubrication showing the usual glossy black finish.

Dunno.

[cyberbadger]

I have seen this black at times from my boiler. I'm doing the amine treatments with teryln and I thought it had something to do with the supposed desirable magnetite layer that it is supposed to help build up.

-CB

[Lopez Mike]

My only treatment is a little TSP to keep the pH up and I get the back dust.

If it's magnetite it will be quite magnetic. Maybe I'll hang a magnet in my hot well and see what collects on it.

[cyberbadger]

Further reading about magnetite from the traction engine community smokstak.

Passivation is the establishment of a layer that protects
the solid metal structure of a boiler from corrosive attack.
This layer is Black Iron Oxide formed under Basic water
conditions ( lots of OH- ions ), or Magnetite Hydroxide,
also called Gamma Magnetite.

Smokstak forum thread on metal passivation.
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40865

Smokstak forum thread on Rusty boiler innards and water treatment
https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99749

-CB

[Lopez Mike]

Took me a careful read to remember that in those threads they are talking about non-condensing systems. I couldn't figure out why they were continuing treat the water with such quantities.

So until I read them all through again, I get the strong impression that as long as I keep my swamp around 10 to 11 pH (TSP) and blow down maybe once a day, and leave the boiler dry and empty, I will probably not need a new boiler every year.

I kind like the storing it with nitrogen idea. My MiG welding gas is Argon and CO2 so I guess that wouldn't substitute at all.

I blow down with a large (1.5" pipe) fitting quite close to the bottom of the water leg (VFT boiler). On a daily blow the first second shows some muddiness but clean looking after that. When I'm going to leave Folly on the trailer for more than a couple of weeks, I wait until the fire is down to coals and just dump it. Sometimes I'm still showing 50-100 psi at the start. Then leave the whistle valve open until no more steam is coming out. Then close everything up tight.

Like I need more toys, I'm thinking of a conductivity tester and a fiber optic scope. Both have come way down in price. I'd sure like to do some looking around at both the water line and the bottom of the mud ring.

[wsmcycle]

Mike
fiber optic scope
There's a fun idea. I even have one and i have never thought to scope out the boiler. Not much room in there VFT.

[cyberbadger]

Took me a careful read to remember that in those threads they are talking about non-condensing systems. I couldn't figure out why they were continuing treat the water with such quantities.

Good point. I don't know of a traction engine that was ever made condensing.

Traction engine folks - and I enjoy it too - like listening to their engines chuffing under load. It sounds different no load vs load because the governors will open up the steam valve to try and keep a constant rpm - so more exhaust from the engine, more puffing/chuffing and a better draft.

-CB