Steamboat Mike,
I like the use of coarse threads in the soft material for the usual reasons. And the hardened thrust washer is very good practice.
Thin jam nut on the bottom? I don't get the theory behind that. Hard to see how you could get the proper torque on a thin nut without stripping the threads out.
On I.C. engines that use jam type lock nuts (old ford V8 rod cap nuts come to mind) the thin nuts always go on last after the thick nuts have been touched down to specs.
Tiny Power M Twin Build
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
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DetroiTug
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
For US automotive tooling we have to use heli-coils on M6-1.0 and up in aluminum. Much stronger threads. EMS equipment is the same way or was.
-Ron
-Ron
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
Helicoil is the best in any softer metal. Most aircraft applications require it.
Rule of thumb: If the bolt is made of stronger stuff than the material you are threading in to, go coarse. You need a really big coarse thread to hold in a bar of soap! If the bolt is about the same strength or even weaker (not often for that last) then go for fine thread.
Grade eight is nice not only for the strength but because it is made by rolling the threads thus less friction when tightening and thus more clamping pressure. Lubrication, hardened washers and grade eight makes for serious clamping force.
The reality is that in most of our applications we can use brass nuts and get by just fine. Pretty too.
Rule of thumb: If the bolt is made of stronger stuff than the material you are threading in to, go coarse. You need a really big coarse thread to hold in a bar of soap! If the bolt is about the same strength or even weaker (not often for that last) then go for fine thread.
Grade eight is nice not only for the strength but because it is made by rolling the threads thus less friction when tightening and thus more clamping pressure. Lubrication, hardened washers and grade eight makes for serious clamping force.
The reality is that in most of our applications we can use brass nuts and get by just fine. Pretty too.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
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racerfrank
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
Ron--Thank you for the video help. I must have tried 10 times with no luck and I'm sure I typed that = sign at least a few of those tries.
Steamboat Mike-- I'm glad you are enjoying the posts. My methods and ideas on how thing should be done may not always be the best way, take what I do and share with a grain of salt. I agree that fasteners going into aluminum that might be disassembled from time to time should have studs. On the alum small block chevys that go into my friends dragster even the oil pan, front timing chain cover and bell housing bolts are studs with fine thread nuts.
Lopez Mike-- I like the look of brass nuts on stainless studs also. I also like the look of a flanged nut but have been unable to locate them in brass/bronze.
If I were to make all my own brass/bronze nuts, what alloy brass/bronze should I use? Will brass/bronze nuts in applications like steam chest and top and bottom cylinder heads be strong enough?
Frank
Steamboat Mike-- I'm glad you are enjoying the posts. My methods and ideas on how thing should be done may not always be the best way, take what I do and share with a grain of salt. I agree that fasteners going into aluminum that might be disassembled from time to time should have studs. On the alum small block chevys that go into my friends dragster even the oil pan, front timing chain cover and bell housing bolts are studs with fine thread nuts.
Lopez Mike-- I like the look of brass nuts on stainless studs also. I also like the look of a flanged nut but have been unable to locate them in brass/bronze.
If I were to make all my own brass/bronze nuts, what alloy brass/bronze should I use? Will brass/bronze nuts in applications like steam chest and top and bottom cylinder heads be strong enough?
Frank
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
For looks I would use brass. Pretty much brass is brass.
Bronze is really strong and all that but, in my eyes, doesn't look that great.
As to strength in a particular application, I would tend to do the arithmetic as to tension loads on the stud and then more arithmetic as to the torque needed for that stud tension and then do a test with a stud, brass nut and torque wrench.
All of the calculations for stud tension (clamping force) I have seen make a lot of guesses and assumptions about lubrication and co-effients of friction and such. I'd just see how much torque it takes to pull the threads out of a brass nut and them come back here and tell us how it worked.
Bronze is really strong and all that but, in my eyes, doesn't look that great.
As to strength in a particular application, I would tend to do the arithmetic as to tension loads on the stud and then more arithmetic as to the torque needed for that stud tension and then do a test with a stud, brass nut and torque wrench.
All of the calculations for stud tension (clamping force) I have seen make a lot of guesses and assumptions about lubrication and co-effients of friction and such. I'd just see how much torque it takes to pull the threads out of a brass nut and them come back here and tell us how it worked.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
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racerfrank
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
You need a really big coarse thread to hold in a bar of soap!
Now I know why my soap keeps falling off the rope, I've been using fine thread!
Frank
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DetroiTug
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
Quote: "Grade eight is nice not only for the strength but because it is made by rolling the threads"
Just for clarification, just about all external threads on present fasteners are rolled. These machines are crazy fast, capable of threading hundreds of bolts per minute. The old machines had two straight dies and they had a ram like a shaper. Each stroke, another bolt was poked in between at the right time and the threads rolled on. The newer machines use rotary dies. The center hub continuous die runs steadily and the outer die makes about a 120° quadrant. A vibrating hopper and magazine feeds them in at practically a blurring pace. Amazing to watch.
-Ron
Just for clarification, just about all external threads on present fasteners are rolled. These machines are crazy fast, capable of threading hundreds of bolts per minute. The old machines had two straight dies and they had a ram like a shaper. Each stroke, another bolt was poked in between at the right time and the threads rolled on. The newer machines use rotary dies. The center hub continuous die runs steadily and the outer die makes about a 120° quadrant. A vibrating hopper and magazine feeds them in at practically a blurring pace. Amazing to watch.
-Ron
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Lopez Mike
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
Huh! I didn't know that. I'll have to have a closer look at the bolts the next time I'm at my local fastener store.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
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Steamboat Mike
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
Frank, no salt needed, I was told and still believe that there is not just one way to remove the fur from a feline, I always like to see how others have re-invented their wheels.
Lopez Mike, as to the thin nut on the bottom, I have seen it on several marine steam engines and at first it seemed backwards and just wrong. If you think about it there is a kind of logic to it though. Try a Google search for "use of jam nuts" there is a good explanation of the theory. If I knew how to create links it would be easier, but the explanation at
http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/jamnut.htm is one of the clearest I have seen.
On my engine I am using thick and thin nuts. I was able to find 1/2"-20 nuts that are 3/4" across the flats and 3/4" tall plain faced on both ends. I cut one in half and put a washer face and small chamfer on both sides to use as the bottom thin nut and finish the full height top nut the same way on the bottom and a slightly larger plain chamfer on the top. If these nuts had not been available I would have used fine thread coupling nuts as stock for nut making.
Having said all this, if you read some of the other offerings under the above mentioned "use of jam nuts" there is a lot of discussion of the relative merits of thin nut on top versus thin nut on the bottom, to which I say that I feel more comfortable with the thin nut on the bottom system and find the logic more persuasive. Your results may differ. All of which leads me to conclude my thoughts with a reference to paragraph one of this post with regard to felines and the fur thereof. It is, after all, simply about what floats your boat, or keeps the fasteners on it tight.
After all this talk of jam and nuts I am going to have a snack.
Happy steaming and best regards Steamboat Mike
Lopez Mike, as to the thin nut on the bottom, I have seen it on several marine steam engines and at first it seemed backwards and just wrong. If you think about it there is a kind of logic to it though. Try a Google search for "use of jam nuts" there is a good explanation of the theory. If I knew how to create links it would be easier, but the explanation at
http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/tech/jamnut.htm is one of the clearest I have seen.
On my engine I am using thick and thin nuts. I was able to find 1/2"-20 nuts that are 3/4" across the flats and 3/4" tall plain faced on both ends. I cut one in half and put a washer face and small chamfer on both sides to use as the bottom thin nut and finish the full height top nut the same way on the bottom and a slightly larger plain chamfer on the top. If these nuts had not been available I would have used fine thread coupling nuts as stock for nut making.
Having said all this, if you read some of the other offerings under the above mentioned "use of jam nuts" there is a lot of discussion of the relative merits of thin nut on top versus thin nut on the bottom, to which I say that I feel more comfortable with the thin nut on the bottom system and find the logic more persuasive. Your results may differ. All of which leads me to conclude my thoughts with a reference to paragraph one of this post with regard to felines and the fur thereof. It is, after all, simply about what floats your boat, or keeps the fasteners on it tight.
After all this talk of jam and nuts I am going to have a snack.
Happy steaming and best regards Steamboat Mike
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Steamboat Mike
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Re: Tiny Power M Twin Build
Frank,
This is like the old Columbo TV series..... "Oh, just one more thing...."
With regard to your question about material for making nuts and Lopez Mike's thoughts about the look of bronze compared to brass, you might consider CDA 642. It is a silicon, aluminum bronze that has the color of CDA 360 free machining brass and the tensile strength of not so mild steel. It machines very nicely and threads beautifully. It is readily available from McMaster-Carr. It is not cheap, but you will only make the nuts once, and it only hurts when you write the check. You could make your own washer-nuts from this material. If you set up for production it would not take very long to make a set of very beautiful and unusual nuts.
Happy nut making, best regards, Steamboat Mike
This is like the old Columbo TV series..... "Oh, just one more thing...."
With regard to your question about material for making nuts and Lopez Mike's thoughts about the look of bronze compared to brass, you might consider CDA 642. It is a silicon, aluminum bronze that has the color of CDA 360 free machining brass and the tensile strength of not so mild steel. It machines very nicely and threads beautifully. It is readily available from McMaster-Carr. It is not cheap, but you will only make the nuts once, and it only hurts when you write the check. You could make your own washer-nuts from this material. If you set up for production it would not take very long to make a set of very beautiful and unusual nuts.
Happy nut making, best regards, Steamboat Mike