The Steamboating Forum

Since Ray's passing, and until his estate is settled, it's not possible to buy any of his plans. I would like to get my hands on the plans for a #5, but I didn't "discover" Ray and his wonderful designs until a week after he passed. (Rest in peace Ray)

I'm sure there are plans afoot to put his work out there, but I know how these things sometimes go, and am worried that I may have missed my chance to get my grubby mitts on a set of plans.

Honestly I'm not sure what the etiquette is here. While Ray never asked for much for his plans I don't really feel right asking if anyone can just email me a scanned copy. But neither can I go buy my own, and it may be months or years before his plans are available again. (If ever. God knows Lawyers and the taxman have a way of sucking all the cream out of any estate.) I really would like a set of plans, if only because building a HasBrouck means that I don't have to buy some very expensive castings just to build an engine.

What would you all suggest?

Wearyman,

As I understand it, his plans are going to live on. I can not share the details until the parties involved are ready, but they will live on and be available.

Join the HasBrouck Engines yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HasBrouck ... d=45742248 and keep abreast. Lots of good info there about building the engines.

Ron Ginger, who's connected with both the yahoo group and the HasBrouck website will, by an earlier agreement with Ray, be handling continuing sales of the plans. 'Course there's the sorting thru, etc., etc. but Ron feels probably 2 - 3 months. He'll post on the yahoo groups website when plans will again be available.

Ah. Ok then. I can wait. Truth be told, I'm not yet ready to start on building an engine anyway. I have several home repair/maintenance projects that will demand my limited time first before I can even consider building an engine.

And then there is the fact that I don't own any kind of lathe or mill (and only barely know how to use one! ) but hey, Ya gotta learn sometime right? Building an engine is as good a way as any. So I guess I'll have to pick something up off of ebay or craigslist. Lots of old machine shops in the WNY area selling equipment, so I should be able to pick something up.

Incidentally, how large a boat could I reasonably expect one of his engines to drive? I'm not looking to go terribly fast, as I plan to spend most of my time on the Erie Canal (now known as the NY barge canal) and the various small rivers that connect to it. I MIGHT head out onto the Niagara and up towards Lake Erie, but you can get pretty big swells out there, so I doubt I'll spend much time in those kinds of waters.

So I don't need a ton of power, but I'd like a boat in the 20 - 24 foot range. I've actually been looking at the RUBY plans since the construction is stitch and tape and thus not horribly difficult. Am I looking at the correct engines to power that kind of boat, or so I need to look into something a bit larger?

Rather than going out and just purchasing old shop equipment, Go to your nearest community college and lake some machine shop classes. The teacher will usually let students work on personal projects as a "final" for class. A lot cheaper than buying a lathe, etc..

That way, you will find out whether or not you like machining or if you even have a knack for it before dropping several K$$ on used equipment that may or may not even be any good.

Excellent advice.

Unfortunately, between work and family, I rarely have time for much in the evenings, let alone school. If I did, it would most likely be continuing education for my profession, so metal shop classes are pretty much out of the question for me.

Which really stinks because that is a great idea.

Actually I've seen quite a few smaller metal lathes for sale for not all that much. Of course, if the cost is too high I could just have the parts that need metalwork done professionally. Also, my Father-in-law is an old sheet metal worker, he may have contacts with machinists that I could tap for some fabrication. Then I just have to put the engine together.

Of course, that is also why I thought a HasBrouck engine would be best for my needs. Since they need less in the machining department than a more traditional "castings" type steam engine (at least, that's my understanding) then the machining burden is much smaller. Actually, I'm hoping that if I can spend enough time studying his plans I might even be able to find a way of building it without machining a thing. But I will need some time to really examine them and to pore through parts catalogs.

Note too that I'm not really in a rush to get this done. This is a long-term "challenge" project for me. I didn't pick it because I thought it would be easy, but because I thought it would be hard. (Although not too hard. I DO want to finish it!)

Of course, I ALSO want to make sure I'm going to build the right sized engine for the size boat I want to build. Is a HasBrouck #5 large enough for a 22 foot launch?

Dear wearyman ,

The power needed for a hull is often much less than you might imagine . Many canal barges were pulled by one man and they carried many tons , but they went slowly and there were no tides and virtually no currents to overcome . (It was also hard work and folk were much fitter then. )
Even so I think that to be safe you ought to aim for not less than 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hp for the hull size you mention , then when you venture out onto less sheltered waters you will have a bit in reserve .

As a general rule at these low speeds and powers to double your speed you will need 8 times the power . However this only applies up to the natural hull speed and for displacement rather than planing hulls (with very , very few exceptions ALL steam boats have and always have had displacement hulls.)
Provided the hull is fairly slim , nicely faired with gentle lines at the bow and stern , has a good surface finish and isn't too heavy the hull speed will be about 1.2 to 1.4 times the square root of the waterline length . ( In mph .)
It is possible to exceed hull speed but most hulls will dissipate almost all the extra power by pushing out more and more wash/wake and squatting more and more , so they end up trying to climb up an ever steepening bow wave . To overcome this the power needs to rise almost exponentially , not a practical proposition for a steam launch .

So I'm not sure that any of the HasBrouck engines would be powerful enough . I also think you may have failed to grasp the amount of machining that may be required .
Fabricated engines are usually designed to be made from fabrications rather than castings to save on the costs of pattern making and casting . Not to save on machining .
I don't know the HasBrouck engines , so may well be wrong .
No doubt there are many folk out there who will correct me .

Hope this rather overlong posting answers some of your questions

Regards Edward .

Thank you for your reply Edward.

You have answered some questions and raised others.

EDIT: Just for informational sake, here is the engine I was thinking I would build: HasBrouck Number 5

According to HasBrouck's site, almost all of his engines run in the 2 HP range, so probably much too small for the size boat I was thinking of. (Although I suppose I could build two and interlink them somehow.) It is likely I will either have to reduce the size boat I wish to build, or increase the engine size.

Which, of course, puts another bit of a bend into it. While I am a somewhat accomplished framer and woodworker, I have literally no experience metal machining. I do, however, have mechanical aptitude and a moderate level of experience repairing IC engines.

While my profession is actually Computer Networking and Administration (very far away indeed from the machinists trade) I can say that I've had a very wide range of hands-on work just satisfying my curiosity for "how stuff works". Let's just say that growing up, my Dad knew better than to leave me alone with any appliance and the tool chest.

So, despite my desire to go boating up and down the local small rivers, I'm not ready or willing to just drop several thousand dollars on a pre-built engine. (Although I may go that route for the boiler. High-pressure steam vessels are not to be taken lightly!) I really do want to build it myself, but am stuck with a missing skillset and no tools when it comes to machining parts.

From what I've been reading on the forum, it seems that most of you have your own machine/tool shops and are experienced machinists. Have any of you heard of someone like me successfully building a steam engine? Am I massively overreaching and completely off my nut for even considering this, or is there a way I can do this without having to buy everything pre-fab and breaking the bank?

My father built his first steam engine by taking nighttime machine shop classes while also working full time as a forester. He had no prior experience, or equipment.

The engine was a small fore'n'aft compound of similar dimentions and build as a Stuart 6A.

He later went on to build his own 40sq ft Roberts style watertube boiler.. and now he's putting together a 40ft steamboat.

Anything can be accomplished, if you want it enough.

BUT be VERY careful.. Once you get bit by the bug it's very hard to get your fix.

Dear Wearyman ,

87gn@tahoe has given you an answer . As per usual there probably isn't a single definitive one . I too know of someone who's first machining project was to build a steam engine and he made a very good job of it . He was a retired surgeon so had manual skills and intelligence ; most importantly he said that all his surgical training told him to do as much preliminary preparation as possible , once started work fast and above all once started the job MUST be finished !

There are lots of instructional books on the subject and it is POSSIBLE to do it all from cold . However while a full blown course of formal training might not be necessary some instruction is highly desirable .
It is also desirable to be able to get help after starting one's project . As most steam engines are only built in small quantities many of the plans/designs that are available need "interpreting" (ie previous builders have found and overcome problems but haven't told the supplier to amend the plans or the supplier , if told , hasn't bothered. )

In some ways machining is easier than carpentry as metals have more precisely known characteristics than wood , what makes it rather more difficult to start is that you do need to make a much bigger capital outlay to start your machine-shop than a carpentry shop . This is why it can be so useful to attend some form of adult education / night school / community college . You will not only learn skills and find out if you wish to continue , you can use their equipment .

If you do decide to go ahead it would probably be sensible to start off with a relatively cheap project such as a HasBrouck engine . That way you will be making your mistakes on comparatively cheap stock materials rather than expensive castings . Then , having learnt not only the basics of machine work but also the basics of steam engine design , you will be much better equipped to progress to more ambitious designs and workshops .

Finally I must confess to something like total hypocricy since my machining experience is EXTREMELY limited , nevertheless I hope I have learnt from observing other peoples' projects and with any luck some other forum members , seeing the advice I have given , will leap in with their corrections .

Regards Edward .