The Steamboating Forum

So I was having a discussion with marine steam - but I want to continue it here because I haven't found a succinct legal explanation of how this mess of patchwork of states vs federal laws actually work for steamboats.

When I built Nyitra I called the Ohio Watercraft Officer and visited in person when registering and talked to an officer in person. I didn't have to show anything about the boiler. When I wanted to add a third pontoon I called them again, and they said as long as I didn't change the vessel length an inspection wasn't necessary.

I specifically wanted to correct the registration to reflect that it is a steamboat and it is listed as Fuel Type 4 - Other (For my OH registration). They also let me change it to Inboard, but there was some other game with that about the title regarding changing it to Inboard but I accomplished it by having the title people talk to the ohio watercraft office on the phone and it just happened.

When I insured Nyitra I was upfront with Progressive and told them I had made a steamboat, and that there would be a fire on the deck and a boiler under pressure. They said how fast will it go, I said 15mph at the very most. My max achieved I believe is 5mph at this point. They added some performance upgrades tickbox in a data field that may make my insurance slightly higher but it wasn't enough that I wanted to quibble about. In Ohio at least the insurance apparently is not required, I have heard that if you own a home you will get some coverage from a home owners policy.

It's confusing and especially tricky because steamboats are actually called out specifically from small boats in some references and how and what the jurisdiction is and also different ways to document a vessel.

So how does it actually work in the US that at least 3-4 watercraft officers in 2 states have not required me to show anything about my boiler? I thought I understood it and was diligent and up front with the state of Ohio and Progressive Insurance.
All they want to see so far is registration is current and some attempt that I have all the required safety gear.

Rambling and more links below ..

-CB

It's confusing enough that The Secretary of Commerce and Labor George W. Wicker Sham wrote specifically about the topic.
Official Opinions of the Attorneys General of the United States, Advising ...
https://books.google.com/books?id=1kzvm ... et&f=false

Thought it was CFR 33, but it's related to 46.

Title 33 of the United States Code and 33 C.F.R. define the "navigable waters of the United States" and apply certain laws and regulations to those waters.

For those who "boat" on a "navigable waterway" of the US ( you can go from there to salt water without portaging ), you fall under the US Coast Guard by virtue of the Motor Boat Act of 1910 ( now codified in 46 USC ) - and the US Coast Guard does not require the inspection of boilers and machinery of steamboats under 40' in length ( measured at the deck ) or that do not carry passengers for hire. This Act exempts vessels falling under the Act from any state regulation.

http://www.spiretech.net/~artemis/SLAfaqs.htm

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/2.01-7

Checkout "MotorBoating" August, 1939 article "Motor Boat Legislation" on page 54
https://books.google.com/books?id=wt5Du ... et&f=false

CFR › Title 46 › Chapter I › Subchapter A › Part 2 › Subpart 2.01 › Section 2.01-7 Title 46 Chapter I 24.5

Clear as Mud?

Quote: "how does it actually work in the US that at least 3-4 watercraft officers in 2 states have not required me to show anything about my boiler?"

- They have not been trained on the inspection of a steamboat, that is under US coast guard jurisdiction.

- They are typically DNR or "Game wardens". They perform routine safety check for proper safety gear, no drunks at the helm etc.

- We are not on their radar (Yet)

And we won't be until someone does something stupid and kills and/or burns a bunch of people. That's what it took for the Traction engine people, The Medina explosion. Someone taking a traction engine to a show without insurance and a current boiler inspection? They won't get in.

That's why people think they're getting hassled when people that know better try to educate them, they simply misunderstand what is at stake. It's for their own good, and for the continuance of our hobby. If you see someone doing something dangerous, tell them. As I've said before, our hobby could be gone with the stroke of a pen and we would have zero chance of swaying any lawmaker otherwise, especially in our small and scattered numbers. Money invested in our boats would be gone. By educating and self-policing we can avoid an event like that.

Understand how states operate, it's all about the money. If it comes to pass that they have to spend the money to train every local sheriff with a water patrol and every DNR agent on the safe operation of a steamboat, they won't, they will simply outlaw them at the state level. And that will be that.

DetroiTug wrote: That's why people think they're getting hassled when people that know better try to educate them, they simply misunderstand what is at stake. It's for their own good, and for the continuance of our hobby. If you see someone doing something dangerous, tell them. As I've said before, our hobby could be gone with the stroke of a pen and we would have zero chance of swaying any lawmaker otherwise, especially in our small and scattered numbers. Money invested in our boats would be gone. By educating and self-policing we can avoid an event like that.

Indeed. There are some straightforward things we have to do as steam boaters to help insure people's safety. We do not want to create a situation where it is required to use a Code boiler, officially inspected on a yearly basis, to go steaming. The safety rules of the Northwest Steam Society are good ones to follow.

http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/3c78c8_46 ... 6b94ae.pdf

- Bart

I don't buy the we are not on the radar ipso factor there have been multiple motor boating acts at the federal level.

There have been small steamboats in the US for several hundred years, the legal situation has had plenty of time for precedents.

-CB

P.S. Please look at the thread title, put the safety aspect aside.

P.P.S. Becaise if you really actually care about steam and safety then there is no need to hide the law - it should stand up by itself.

You don't buy, that a "State" DNR officer or the local town sheriff out for a spin in their boat looking for drunks is not trained in the laws governing the safe operation of a power boiler?

State is one thing.

Federal is totally different.

You haven't ran a steamboat much and interacted with DNR, Park rangers, State police, Local sheriffs and even Homeland security like I have while out, they don't know anything about what we're doing, they assume it's legal for us to be out there and that is it. Any of them that had enough interest to ask questions, made it quite clear, they had zero training or understanding of what we were doing. DNR asks to see a fire extinguisher and life jackets, throwable device, current registration. That is the extent of any "State" inspection I've encountered. The three Homeland security agents were on my boat for about 45 minutes asking us how it worked.

Now if you see the Federally controlled U.S. Coast guard coming and your state requires a Code boiler, better have one. And be under 40 ft in length and under two square feet of boiler grate area without a commercial license. I seriously doubt the Coast Guard is going to be on your lake.

DetroiTug wrote:You haven't ran a steamboat much and interacted with DNR, Park rangers, State police, Local sheriffs and even Homeland security like I have while out, they don't know anything about what we're doing, they assume it's legal for us to be out there and that is it. .

That has been exactly my experience, the first DNR Officer said he had been doing this for thirty years and this was new to him.

But our experience talking to a bunch of people who don't know the law isn't going to tell us the law.

Both of our experiences don't tell us anything about the law.

-CB

DetroiTug wrote: Now if you see the Federally controlled U.S. Coast guard coming and your state requires a Code boiler, better have one. And be under 40 ft in length and under two square feet of boiler grate area without a commercial license. I seriously doubt the Coast Guard is going to be on your lake.

I'm not clear as to the source of the 2 square foot grate area limitation; https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/46/2.01-7
clearly lays out the 40 ft limitation. There also doesn't appear to be a special limit on passengers for hire; the standard
6 passenger limit applies to steam vessels as well, which I didn't know.

- Bart

I read that somewhere regarding the less than two square feet of grate area. ?? That may not be the case.

-Ron

Reading the table in §2.01-7 Classes of vessels (including motorboats) examined or inspected and certificated

column 1 (7) Steam, vessels ≤19.8 meters (65 feet) in length

column 3 (iv) These regulations do not apply to—

(A) Recreational vehicles not engaged in trade.

So they way I understand it, and granted I'm not a lawyer is, Under federal law the Coast Guard exempts our vessels from Coast Guard inspection. The jurisdiction of the Coast Guard only applies to navigable waterways, which has a strict legal definition

§ 329.4 General definition.

Navigable waters of the United States are those waters that are subject to the ebb and flow of the tide and/or are presently used, or have been used in the past, or may be susceptible for use to transport interstate or foreign commerce. A determination of navigability, once made, applies laterally over the entire surface of the waterbody, and is not extinguished by later actions or events which impede or destroy navigable capacity.

So on salty water, the great lakes, several of the large waterways (Mississippi R, Hudson R, etc) we are under the jurisdiction of the Coast Guard and basically they don't care about inspection our boilers. Where the feds claim jurisdiction the states can't but that doesn't mean we're off the hook so to speak. That's not to say if there is an accident that the state won't be involved in the investigation either.

For the rest of us in the states, we are operating on inland waters and are under the jurisdiction of state in which we are operating and by extension the boiler code of that state. In order to understand what your boiler inspection requirements need to be for your particular instance you need to read your states boiler code and probably have a discussion with your state's boiler inspection department.

The two foot grate area comes in play with miniature power boilers which are classified as being 16" or less shell diameter, 2 sqft or less grate area and operate at less than 100psi. Not applicable for most of us steam boaters. Miniature power boilers have their own section in ASME code and in Colorado as they have adopted ASME lock, stock and barrel must be adhered to as well.

Also take note that inspection criteria and requirements to build to code are separate. It's most likely that your state has adopted ASME code and requires all boilers to be built to ASME code. Depending on the regulations of your state it's possible that you can operate a boiler that isn't stamped if you can show that the design, materials and workmanship are up to code.

As I have written before, the ASME code is a document written in the blood of those who failed before us. This is not an area to be taken lightly, skimp, cut corners or to try your own new thing.

For the newbies, I hope it's understood that some of us get on the soapbox when it comes to this issue because want everyone participating in this hobby to be safe. This is because we care and too for our own self interest in being able to continue this hobby. When done right power boilers are safe, but the cost of entry into this hobby is high for good reason, it really could be life or death if you don't.

Cheers
Ken

While I appreciate the dangers of pressure vessels, I do need to point to the following
report from the Coast Guard on boating fatalities in 2016.

https://www.uscgboating.org/library/acc ... s-2016.pdf

While we're paying attention to the unique aspects of steamboats, do keep in mind that
the mundane, everyday hazards involved in boating are also important.

- Bart