The Steamboating Forum

Hi Folks

Sorry to have started a small whirlpool by my earlier posting.

Jack is spot on to remind us about this issue. Putting on my 'paper pusher' hat, I would argue that buying building plans is not quite the same thing as buying a book. When you buy something like Ray Hasbrouck or SBAS plans you are getting two things. Firstly, you are buying a licence to build a single instance of the particular object. This is the normal way that the licence holder will earn his/her keep. At the same time you will also get a set of plans which may or may not be sufficient to enable you to build the object. These will be copyrighted which means that the author is asserting his/her ownership of the drawing. However, s/he may or may not allow the drawing to be freely circulated. There are various options open to an author, with which those of you who make use of open source software will probably be familiar. Within the steam boating fraternity my (limited) experience suggests that design owners tend to be relaxed about their drawings being copied and examined widely, but expect any builder deciding to use them to cough up the licence fee to build.

Hope that all makes sense!

In that context, can I ask if anybody knows the source of the following photos which have ended up in my 'Useful boat pictures' folder. I don't recall how I got hold of them or who owns the copyright. However, I would possibly like to use them in an article so would like permission to use them.







My guess is that it must be a steam boating colleague from South Africa, Australia or New Zealand. The garden grass is dryer than one might see in the UK and the caravan registration plate, presumably rear, is white reflective. The UK would be yellow reflective and the font is also narrower than permitted UK fonts. Any thoughts?


Regards


Pete

Mike, Ray HasBrouck was the nicest, kindest, smartest little old gentleman I knew with alot of steam time and stories. If you don't approve of people wanting to make an honest living by selling their plans to one person only so he can sell the second plan to another then do not buy them. he wanted to make a modest buck and also wanted know the people building his engines because it made him happy because that is the kind of guy he was.

steamdon-jr wrote:Mike, Ray HasBrouck was the nicest, kindest, smartest little old gentleman I knew with alot of steam time and stories. If you don't approve of people wanting to make an honest living by selling their plans to one person only so he can sell the second plan to another then do not buy them. he wanted to make a modest buck and also wanted know the people building his engines because it made him happy because that is the kind of guy he was.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with it, it's just the first time I came across this type of copyright and to me, it seems extremely difficult to police. How would anyone know if I built two (or more)?

I've also built a lot of stuff from plans over the many years, and more often than not, stuff gets altered along the way, sometime very radically, at what stage does the copyright fall?

This is more philosophical/hypothetical than anything else.

I do not believe Ray cared if "you" built one or a thousand so long as you did not just share the plans with anyone else. He wanted to sell the plans directly and know who he was selling them too. he was a person who loved to be involved and help whenever he could. Sadly he is not with us to share his knowledge anymore but he made sure his plans were available to all after his passing.

Folks,

In the UK copyright applies to drawings, Look at the statement on those supplied by Stuart Turner. What you buy is a licence to use the information on the drawing for your own use. Same applies to drawings for boat hulls.

I quote from a lawyer's advice pamphlet:- copyright lasts 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the last remaining author of the work dies. If the author is unknown, copyright will last for 70 years from end of the calendar year in which the work was created, although if it is made available to the public during that time, (by publication, authorised performance, broadcast, exhibition, etc.), then the duration will be 70 years from the end of the year that the work was first made available.

All the best

This is what is on the sheet that comes with Ray's plans. Perhaps copyright law is different in the States, it would hardly be surprising, or it may just be how it was written.


Rays Plans

Thank you for ordering one of Ray Hasbroucks plans. I hope you will enjoy building the engine.

Note there is a Yahoo group devoted to Rays engines that may be helpful if you have difficulties or questions about your engine. See the link on the first page of the web site, Hasbrouck.8m.com

One very common question is about plans for a boiler to suit these engines. Sorry, but Ray did not offer any plan for a boiler. There are a few books, mostly published in the UK that have design information and boiler plans. Try a Google search.

Please observe the copyright of these drawing. You have bought the right to build one engine for your own use. You may make copies of the pages for your use in the shop. But it is a violation of copyright law to copy these plans and give or sell them to anyone else, or to make models to sell.

Thanks, and I hope the plans provide you with a nice project.


Whatever, we are behove to do as asked, and not abuse the privilege. Besides this is causing thread-drift, somewhat.

Today we can sign all our work with one of the different CC labels to expres our intention of copyright and make our work accessible for all steamboaters after we passed away and our widows don't know what to do with "all that stuff" ...
http://creativecommons.org/choose/?lang=en

Hi Rainer

Thanks for posting that information. It is a really useful link for those of that 'dabble' with websites and non commercial publications.

Regards

Pete

After reading about UK copyrights on Wikipedia I can find nothing that says a copyrighted item is only to be used once. Neither can I find anything that would prohibit a person from selling the copyrighted item. You CAN NOT make copies but you can sell or give away the original. This is of interest to me as I buy and sell used books and other paper items. I take what you are saying to mean I cannot sell a used book, map or blueprint copyrighted in England, that is simply not true.

I think I understand your concern about someone selling the plans for an engine or boat after they are done with them but that's really not in your hands. Once the book/plans are sold they belong to the buyer to do with as they want as long as they do not copy them. There is also no legal precedent saying a person cannot sell the item they built using the plans. About the only way to make a "one use or no commercial use" item would be to enter into a written licensing agreement signed by the owner and buyer. Just saying so won't hold water.

Just a thought, its common for University students to buy and sell text books.