Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

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marinesteam
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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by marinesteam » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:03 pm

DetroiTug wrote:This subject comes up quite often in the experimental steam car community and electronic valves on a steam engine is often sought after but always abandoned. Run in to too many issues cycling a solenoid thousands of times per minute, even a few hundred is problematic.

-Ron
Ron's correct, An off of the shelf solenoid valve wouldn't last very long. You'd basically be pounding the valve shuttle to bits. That's not to say it couldn't. With proper cooling of the coil and proper design of the mechanicals to handle the duty cycle it should, in theory, work.

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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by Lionel Connell » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:49 am

Electromagnets (solenoid coils) use a lot of current which is a negative to shaft horsepower on a self contained plant.
This may have been the case at one time, but it is not so anymore

Solenoids can be pulsed at high frequency such that the power use is just a small fraction of what would otherwise be used, it is also possible capture the collapsing field of a solenoid with a secondary winding so that much of the power can be retained in a similar way to a transformer.

There are people manufacturing IC engines running at 10,000 rpm with solenoids operated the valves. Toyota has invested millions into the technology such that they can completely control induction and exhaust to the point of stopping the pumping action of some cylinders completely when only limited power is needed.

Toyota and other car manufacturers are working toward having one cylinder of the IC engine operating as a steam engine using some undisclosed liquid with a very low boiling point, the liquid is heated by the engine coolant and exhaust gasses, the system is said to make the radiator obsolete. Toyota expect to have the engines in production within 5 years.


Google "Camless Engines" and you will find a stack of information on solenoid actuated IC engine valves.

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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by DetroiTug » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:49 am

Ive been watching the electric valve development for about 20 years - General motors has invested a great deal in it, and keep hearing the same things, "close to production" "we're narrowing it down", "this is a game changer" etc. Still no available engines with this technology. It's hoopla for the eye-catching press releases. If this was so great and easy, someone would have came to market by now..

It would be, if it wasn't for the electromagnet. There is just no practical way to use one efficiently when it's function is derived by high current through a coil inducing a magnetic field. High current - high resistance - high heating, it's just a bastard device that is really only suited to intermittent and slow service where cost of operation is of little consideration vs the amount of linear force produced.

-Ron
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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by Lopez Mike » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:18 am

All of this concern with valve gear flies in the face of practical experience in that right to the last of reciprocating marine steam the old standby of Stevenson remained in use. Fuel was not free even then.

Serious stationary steam went over to the Corliss system but even then the jump in efficiency was less due to the valve gear than the move away from having the steam enter and exit the cylinder through the same ports. The improved valve events helped but were not the big breakthrough. By the time uniflow engines came along, turbines were triumphant in large installations and I.C. engines drove our small steam engines into the shadows.

Our launch engines are not efficient. They are severely handicapped by the insoluble fact of their volume to surface ratio. Shrews have to eat all of the time. Lions can lay about and digest. By any engineering standards our engines qualify as entertaining condensers. We may save some fuel by better insulation and judicious addition of heat exchangers in the feed water plumbing. But I think most of us are in this hobby for more esthetic considerations.
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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by Lionel Connell » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:28 am

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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by Lionel Connell » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:55 am

Mike,

The next time your are driving down the road, take note of how many different types of motorbikes you see. All that any of the riders really need is a 100cc scooter to get them from A to B. However, they all have different personal needs and so they each choose something different. Sometimes a guy wants something that will be completely different to everybody else. So he goes and builds something that is quite impractical by many standards, it does not stick with tradition, it may in fact not be any better in any way at all, it may indeed have more negatives than positives, for transport he is probably better off with a scooter. I wonder how many motorbike experts threw cold water on this guy's idea before he built it.
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Thank God he didn't listen to them, and he just went ahead and did his own thing.

One can only imagine the sweat pouring of the rider when he is sitting at the traffic lights while the engine cooks him alive. But he doesn't worry, he has achieved his goal, he has something different, something to be proud of, and nobody cares that the whole thing is unnecessary or impractical.

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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by Mike Rometer » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:03 am

Lionel Connell wrote:Mike,

But he doesn't worry, he has achieved his goal, he has something different, something to be proud of, and nobody cares that the whole thing is unnecessary or impractical, and just eats tyres (tires) for breakfast!

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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by DetroiTug » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:12 pm

Quote: "Fortunately these guys don't share your skepticism."

A model airplane engine at a hobby show?

I was referring to the automotive industry at large. Sure it can work. The current draw is the deal breaker, it requires around 10 amps to effect roughly 7 pounds of motive force with an electromagnet/solenoid. Which is probably about 1/4 the force required to operate a standard poppet valve. Just for sake of discussion we'll say 40 amps @12volts. 8 valves for a 4 cylinder engine, according to Mr Otto that works out to around 100 amps @ 12 volts per rev. Need a big alternator.

-Ron
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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by cyberbadger » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:37 pm

Skinner Unaflow Marine Engines are the pinnacle of reciprocating steam power.

The SS Badger is an example of an active steamship with 2 Skinner Unaflow engines. (I am not affiliated with SS Badger but I have been a passenger).

They have much more sophisticated valves then traditional designs. They worked and they are still working!
Image

Now, that being said - some of this stuff does not necessarily scale down that well into engines in a steam launch.

http://www.carferries.com/skinner/

-CB
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Re: Steam Actuated Inlet Valves?

Post by Lopez Mike » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:10 pm

I see bikes like this all the time. Choppers are the worst. Just non-functional junk as are most 'poser' machinery.

I believe fairly strongly in the concept of "Form Follows Function." There are good reasons for what we call retro or antique machines. Fairly obviously our boats are a great example of that. You want to ride fast down a winding road, buy a crotch rocket. Want to cover miles in comfort? Ride a Gold Wing. I rode a Jawa Speedway bike for a decade. Useless for anything but going sideways around a small oval dirt track. And on and on. But where does a modern Harley or the copies of it come in? Overweight, and underpowered and noisy. Just tools for male menopause. "Look at me! I'm different." So what?

What the heck does that hunk of junk with an aircraft engine accomplish besides making noise and offending everyone within earshot? Satisfy his ego? I'm not even slightly impressed. That engine was in the right place on the front of an airplane. Form follows function.
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