Steam Thruster?

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
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cyberbadger
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:01 pm

Was just thinking about baloni slices for safety valves....

A baloni slice is when a pipe is cut with an angle so as to slightly muffle the exhaust. I have one on the discharge of my safety valve.

The point of this is to reduce the sharpness of a straight cut pipe. However if memory serves they (the industry) moved away from this because of a tendency for baloni slices to sometimes unscrew themselves over time from the tangential force imparted.

That could be a lot of force or just a little depending on the fit of the baloni slice and the other connection (typically safety discharge).

-CB
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by Lopez Mike » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:10 pm

I strongly suggest that you research this further. There is a lot to quieting the output of a safety valve. Few designs work well and it doesn't take much to seriously affect the performance of the valve.

I'm sure that you know this but it's very important not to reduce the diameter of the exhaust. I have found that simply adding a nice big copper pipe that aims the exhaust up and away from the passengers makes all the difference in the world. Just get the end of the pipe up higher.

Also, any time the exhaust is able to move a pipe is a dead giveaway that the whole assembly isn't put together right. It should take an energetic mechanic with a pipe wrench to take things apart.
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:25 pm

You are making a lot of assumptions there Mike. :)

Instead of focusing on the brain storming excercise of this thread you are stuck in safety mode?

However the Bologna slice isn't some hypothetical thing that I made up. This has been industry practice in the past.

Example, 3rd from the left:
safety-valve-installation.jpg
safety-valve-installation.jpg (28.05 KiB) Viewed 6678 times
-CB
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by Lopez Mike » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:37 pm

You are brainstorming things that have been beaten to death a hundred years ago.

And yes, I AM stuck in safety mode. I advise you to give this some thought. I will be distressed if you blow yourself up and/or bring down the wrath of various bureaucracies upon yourself. I will be really pissed if any accident that you might have brings them down on me.

We have a very effective system of self regulation, at least in my area. It is based on almost two centuries of bad experiences. It is simply not allowed to deviate from certain basic safety regulations. You will be thrown out of any responsible event if you throttle the output of your safety valve. I know that you do not intend to restrict it with a baloni (sic) slice but be very careful.

If it your valve is making too much noise, it might be too small.
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:40 pm

This is exactly why you are making assumptions that are not true about me!

LOOK AT THAT IMAGE.

-CB

P.S. I can't even reference something that was industry practice without this damned knee jerk safety reaction. That's what just happened. Way overreaction.
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by Lionel Connell » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:05 am

CB, I thought that you had become accustomed to that type of reaction.

Once upon a time a car was not allowed to drive down a road in America unless a man walked in front of the car ringing a bell so that the horses would not bolt at the shock of seeing such an unlikely and dangerous contraption. Fortunately, fair minded people sat down and discussed alternate solutions to the problem, and with a view to getting along, they found a workable solution. Fortunately for us, these days we do not have to employ a guy to walk down the road in front of our cars while we drive along with a 3 Mph speed limit applied.

This thread was started with the heading of Steam Thruster. I suggested a solution that I have actually seen work with my own eyes, however the overwhelming response here was to shut down the idea and claim that it cannot work. But it DOES work, I have seen it work. People continually throw up the smoke screen here that it has all been tried and failed. Edison failed 2000 times too, but we all own a light bulb.

Technological advancement comes from the people who are not satisfied with the belief that the best solution has already been found.

I agree that safety must be the prime concern to everybody who ventures into something like steam power, as should be good manners, fairness of mind, and consideration of others.

Keep thinking CB, that is why God made you as a man and not a sheep, sheep as you know, just follow each other around.

Cheers

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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by fredrosse » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:04 am

I was around in the early 1970s, doing transient steam/water analysis for nuclear power plants as my full time day job. I did this for about 20 years total before I moved into commercial fossil fuel power plant analysis. It was at that time when the commercial power industry began to abandon the use of safety valve discharge pipes cut with a slanted discharge to atmosphere. Some of the big ones, perhaps 24 inch diameter, lifting at over 1200 PSI, produced considerable thrust force. With the slant cut discharge, a radial force (not tangential) was introduced at the discharge end of the pipe, vs. zero radial thrust with the pipe cut squarely at 90 degrees. This was the reason why large power plants abandoned the slant cuts. Of course, all of this piping is welded and/or flanged, way too big, and way too high a pressure for screwed piping.
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by Lionel Connell » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:39 am

If you wish to reduce the sharpness of the sound why not fit a silencer/diffuser ? The total area of the diffuser need not be less than the area of the tube.
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by DetroiTug » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:23 pm

Quote: "Once upon a time a car was not allowed to drive down a road in America unless a man walked in front of the car ringing a bell so that the horses would not bolt at the shock of seeing such an unlikely and dangerous contraption. Fortunately, fair minded people sat down and discussed alternate solutions to the problem, and with a view to getting along, they found a workable solution. Fortunately for us, these days we do not have to employ a guy to walk down the road in front of our cars while we drive along with a 3 Mph speed limit applied. "

Just to keep the record straight for future readers. It was a red flag, hence the "Red Flag Act" of around 1860. It was enacted here in the US and the UK about the same time, and was the result of powerful railroad and stagecoach lobbies right down to the local blacksmith influencing government laws - these cars were their death knell. This new invention threatened their industry and eventually wiped them out. There was never any agreement between the powerful lobbies, the automobile was an inevitable advance to transportation technology and the Red Flag Act was a preposterous attempt to stifle it. It was repealed in both countries around 1904. Incidentally, the infamous London to Brighton veteran car run (must be pre-1905) is to commemorate the repeal of the Red Flag Act. When President Taft ordered a fleet of White steamers for the White house, it put them in a contradictory position to where they could no longer align with opposing lobbies. His car was pretty cool, he had a steam valve in the back he could open that was connected to steam jets along the running boards to repel any would-be attackers.

Here in the states we had many ridiculous laws regarding automobiles. One state had a law that required the driver to get out at every road intersection and fire a gun, yell loudly and fire a roman candle to warn of his intended crossing. One state had a fine of 100 dollars per mile that any horse ran away, startled by an automobile. One state had a law, that an automobile encountering a horse on the road had to stop and drape a cover over the car resembling the surrounding country side and if that didn't work the car had to be disassembled and it parts hidden in the weeds.

Regarding steam development. My good friend Tom Kimmel has a steam museum where he has collected many examples of modern steam experimentation over the years. It's a valid cross section of successful and many unsuccessful attempts at advancing modern steam power technology. It is a very humbling experience for the aspiring steam inventor as their are several examples of where fortunes were squandered to ultimate failure. As Mike points out, all of this was beat to death a hundred years ago, he is correct. If some steam thing isn't or wasn't used, there is a probably a reason for it, it was tried and it didn't work or it was so inefficient it had no hopes of ever competing. Motive steam development is about 250 years old now and just about anything conceivable has been tried.

-Ron
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Re: Steam Thruster?

Post by cyberbadger » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 pm

All I hear is:

1) Vague safety concerns that steam can be dangerous
2) Someone else has done it before

We all have to take personal responsibility for our own actions.

I have already accepted (1) and (2). This is my hobby, obsolete steam technology. It is potentially dangerous, and someone else has done it before, but I have and continue to do it.

If you don't want to brainstorm, you are not required to whine about vague safety concerns.

The more folks grump about steam safety, the less anyone is going to head it when it might actually be important.

-CB
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