1902 Toledo Tuneup

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Lionel Connell
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by Lionel Connell » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:14 am

Ok so your eccentrics appear to be integral with your crank so changing the timing of the eccentrics would be a major undertaking. A very small timing change can be made via re-machining/grinding , BUT, it would mean reducing the diameter of the eccentric thus remaking the straps, which I would not recommend or have the eccentrics built up via welding which again I would not recommend.

Marinesteam nailed it for you, a good rebuild to the original design will probably get you to where you want to be. Your piston valves are shot and will be leaking like crazy. If, which is most likely, the engine has been apart before, the valve setting may have also been poorly set. Just fixing these two things can make an massive improvement.

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cyberbadger
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by cyberbadger » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:18 am

So I spent a few hours at my Steam Tom mentor's shop and showed him where I am. He helped mic a few things.

So At least on Number 2 cylinder (I'm calling it 2, it's the stern most cylinder on Nyitra, 1 is the cylinder closer to the bow - I decided this arbitrarily),
the machined cross slide surfaces have more wear on the side that is "up". Up is the way the engine would have been in the Toledo car, Nyitra keeps this "up" orientation.

Really it's more the cross slide surface that needs to be built up very slightly in that area. My plan is to try to do that with babbit. However Tom is wondering if there is going to be enough there for the babbit to hold onto...

The crosshead itself is reasonably cylindrical 1.125".

The stephenson linkage expansion link block he suggest that it would be easy for me to grind/file a replacement block that would be tighter. In general his attitude is that there is some slop in the engine, but realizes that my machining experience and tools are limited, and that I should be weary of machining things that may not be able to replaced without great effort.

I think making new piston valves is within my capability - to more or less replicate what is there a few thousands over, and then to hand file/sand it to fit.

I wish I had a parts cleaner/ultrasonic cleaner....

-CB
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cyberbadger
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by cyberbadger » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:26 am

Lionel Connell wrote:If, which is most likely, the engine has been apart before, the valve setting may have also been poorly set.
What is this valve setting you speak of?.
Lionel Connell wrote:Ok so your eccentrics appear to be integral with your crank so changing the timing of the eccentrics would be a major undertaking. A very small timing change can be made via re-machining/grinding , BUT, it would mean reducing the diameter of the eccentric thus remaking the straps, which I would not recommend or have the eccentrics built up via welding which again I would not recommend.
I'm certainly not changing the length of linkages, they are very finely cast of phosphor bronze. And definitely not grinding those eccentrics on the crank shaft.

So I'm not sure I entirely understand - you don't think that changing the piston valve design would change the timing for this engine?

(And yes, I'm leaning more towards keeping the design of the piston valves)

-CB
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by Lopez Mike » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:06 am

If you decide to replace that piston valve, think about adding some rings. A piston valve without rings is an invitation to future leakage and poor performance.

A lot has happened in ring technology over the years. As has been noted on here, rings out of air compressors are worth looking in to.

There are other small tricks for longevity like having a small overbore at the end of the stroke (on the main cylinders too!) so that when the bore wears there does not develop a step. Makes life soooo much easier down the road when working on the engine.
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by fredrosse » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:16 am

"What is this valve setting you speak of?." In general there is an adjustment to lengthen, or shorten the rod between the valve gear and the actual valve. That is the first basic adjustment available, and influences the timing of admission, cutoff, release, and compression on the engine head end, and on the engine crank end. They are all influenced by this adjustment, and compromise is always necessary.

Beyond the basic adjustment of this rod length, there are many other adjustments that can be considered as "valve setting", and all of this complex geometry adjustment is well presented within available books on valve gear and valve adjustments. The valve diagram mentioned in my first post within this thread, plus the chapters discussing the changes that could be made, and their impact on performance will tell you what you are asking. Be warned however, to be proficient in this arena can require much study, as well as a strong mechanical aptitude in these arts.

As far as adding piston rings to your valves, the prudence of this depends on the shape of the ports which these rings would traverse. A particular port shape is required to avoid having rings hang up when they cross these ports, with potential disastrous results if the port geometry is incorrect.

Two stroke IC engines use rings that must traverse ports, and often have special features to allow this. Air compressor rings generally do not need to traverse ports, and may be inappropriate for this service.
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by DetroiTug » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:31 am

If the Toledo crankshaft is built in the same way as the Locomobile and the Mason engine and it probably is, they all copied off of one another at the time, the eccentrics are keyed and pressed on to the crankshaft, and heat treated. Removal of them is difficult to impossible, practically no way to get a puller behind them.

So that is the event timing and throw fixed. Unless you want to start regrinding and experimenting, I'd suggest not doing that. I tried to repair the Locomobile crankshaft, and wound up having to make a new one, with new eccentrics. Through discussion with others, we've came to the conclusion, the crankshafts/eccentrics were never designed to be repaired and a replacement assembly was the repair procedure.

The only valve adjustment is the length of the valve rod - adjusting the piston body up and down to balance admission to the upper and lower cylinder.

Quite a bit of good engineering and testing went in to these production car engines. It's very likely, the piston valves as they are designed and dimensioned are set up for optimal performance. Changing the piston design with a shorter or longer piston area of contact would be the same as applying cut-off with the Stephenson linkage.

Mike suggested adding rings, that I would do or at the very least labyrinth grooves.

If you're trying to cut down on steam consumption, that is better accomplished by sleeving the bores dropping the cylinder diameter and making new smaller pistons.

-Ron
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by Lionel Connell » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:21 am

I am with Mike, add rings to the piston valves if the individual port openings are not too large and I would go for 2 stroke IC rings. If you go to visit a shop that specializes in 2 stroke engine rebuilds, preferably a performance engine re-builder, and take your engine with you, they will be able to guide you as to what rings will be suitable to skip the ports in your engine as they are often playing with port dimensions and shapes and have experience in choosing the correct rings for a given situation. If you need rings made to fit an odd size diameter the engine re-builder will know where to get them for you. You would need to look at a lot of locomotive designs before you will find one that does not have rings on the piston valves.
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Lopez Mike
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by Lopez Mike » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:03 pm

Rings hanging up on the bottom and top of a steam ports can be a serious issue. It is deal with on two stroke I.C. engines with two techniques.

One is to have a small pin in the ring groove that prevents a ring from rotating to where an end of a ring can cross a port. Examination of any two stroke piston will show you how this is done. It's easy.

The second is to bevel the top and bottom of the ports so that the ring does not catch on them. Again, examining a small I.C. engine will show you how this is done. It only takes a few moments with a file.

Serious piston valve engines use a sleeve with many smaller round ports such that beveling the edges isn't needed. Should still pin the rings though.

Sleeves are a good way to go as they allow a couple of things. One is ease of rebuilding. Bore out the old one and shrink in a new one. The other is ease of experimenting with timing. No need to rely on the foundry precision for port events. The port in the cylinder casting can be oversized with the events set by the drillings in the sleeve.

Another possible advantage is that if you want to try different bore materials like bronze, a sleeve can be made of anything. I've made them out of prebored and polished stainless steel with a plastic piston and rings for small Stuart engines that will never see steam but will run on air in the owner's living room.

Hydraulic cylinders have a wonderful finish.

What a complicated and interesting hobby we have. Beats football and reality TV all to bits.
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by cyberbadger » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:12 pm

Lopez Mike wrote:The second is to bevel the top and bottom of the ports so that the ring does not catch on them.
Ahh, thank you for this explanation. Makes me wonder why the Toledo doesn't have these bevels.
Lopez Mike wrote:Again, examining a small I.C. engine will show you how this is done.
Why would I buy an IC engine to look at it? :P Have a big and small steam engine that both want my attention. 8-)
Lopez Mike wrote:small Stuart engines that will never see steam but will run on air in the owner's living room.
How uncivilized. "They" should have had a Steam doer/PV to wheel into their living room. :ugeek:
fredrosse wrote:Be warned however, to be proficient in this arena can require much study, as well as a strong mechanical aptitude in these arts.
Noted. But I have to start somewhere. You mention that there are many old references available online. Can you name one that you like or think might be a good place to start? It's intimidating to hear that libraries have been written on the subjection.
DetroiTug wrote:Quite a bit of good engineering and testing went in to these production car engines. It's very likely, the piston valves as they are designed and dimensioned are set up for optimal performance.
I don't doubt it from the quality that I'm seeing.
DetroiTug wrote:If you're trying to cut down on steam consumption, that is better accomplished by sleeving the bores dropping the cylinder diameter and making new smaller pistons.
Well if we take for given that the Toledo piston valves were worn, shouldn't better sealing valves eliminate some quantity of blow by that is doing nothing productive in the engine?

---
So I was sure that at least one tuneup had occurred, but my steam mentor Tom thinks it's probably more like 2 or 3 that have occurred on this particular engine. The actual pistons appear brass/yellow. This was actually steam oil patina. Investigation with a magnet seems to indicate the pistons are some sort of stainless. Stainless steel is too early to have been original 1902.

BTW on flywheels - With the propellor and pulleys there is plenty of intertia holding capability. But I agree with Ron these two cylinder car engines have no any dead spots. That's why they are so awesome because you never need to turn it by hand if I have steam available. Self starts in any orientation.

-CB
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Re: 1902 Toledo Tuneup

Post by Lopez Mike » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:21 pm

Believe me, any place that works on weed eaters or chain saws will have plenty of old cylinders and pistons that they will gladly give you. One run on gas with no oil and they are toast!
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