Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
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cyberbadger
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Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:39 pm

On a different thread Fred mentioned a figure he had obtained for his Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) concentrated in one of his own boilers.

If you have a TDS meter that would be practical for a steamboater or have any tips about Measuring TDS, or care to share what you have seen for TDS values on your boiler I'd love to hear it.

So far I'm very happy with LSB4000/8000 from Teryln AKA Boiler Saver on Nyitra and blow downs. However I have not actually measured TDS myself - just pH and what I see from visual inspection. It's been clean on the sight glass this summer.

-CB
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barts
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by barts » Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:45 pm

I've used one to check on the performance of a reverse osmosis unit on my brother's sailboat recently. They measure temperature compensated conductivity, essentially, so any boiler treatment such as TSP will cause these to increase. One thing that happens w/ boilers that are operated for a long period is that make-up water needed to replace that lost in steam leaks causes the TDS reading to increase steadily over time; one can use TDS readings to decide when to blow down (removing high TDS water from the boiler) and replace some of the boiler's contents w/ fresh makeup water w/ much lower TDS.

I would see them as useful for checking the water one puts into the boiler, but unless you keep the same water in the boiler and continue to add feed they're not very useful for measuring boiler water.

TDS is usually measured in ppm (micrograms/gram). EPA suggests that 500 is a practical limit for drinking water; reverse osmosis units deliver water down in the 100-300 range. Our low pressure boilers are typically operated in the 2000-3500 range according to what I see on the web.

Most of us change the water far too often to worry about TDS since we fill our boilers w/ potable water. However, if you operate in salt water, a sudden unexplained increase in TDS could come from salt water intrusion into the boiler due to splashes in the hotwell or a leak into the condenser.

- Bart
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by Lopez Mike » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:36 pm

You should be blowing down once a day anyhow. A bit of TSP and you will be fine.

The truly interesting thing for a non-condensing plant will be to test the lake or river water. I just took a shower at a desert campground in Arizona that almost left deposits on my hide. Looked great though! (The water, that is.)
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:51 pm

The Chautauqua Belle is non condensing, and they ran for a season a few years back with no treatment and that ended up being a mistake for them. But they get so many more miles/season then I get. I felt like I was doing a lot and I think I calculated in total Nyitra steamed about 30 miles this season. I was blowing down a little every time I steamed and keeping lsb4000 in the boiler. I felt comfortable leaving the water in the boiler up to a week . I don't recommend that practice, but it seemed to be ok in my case going from how the boiler looks inside right now.

-CB
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by barts » Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:58 am

Some of us leave water treated with TSP in the boiler for weeks at a time when boating in salt water. This is when a TDS meter, pH meter and perhaps chloride titration kit are useful.

- Bart
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by fredrosse » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:02 am

A $30 TDS meter (look on the internet), is useful, you can get them for $30, or $3000 depending on the supplier, but the $30 jobs seem to work OK for our hobby.

I run non-condensing, and use a 15 gallon feedwater tank to supply the boiler when underway, good for about two hours running without makeup.

Starting up I use Potable water (Philadelphia) which ran about 215 PPM several years ago, now it runs around 250 PPM. Lake Noximixon, where we do most steaming, runs around 115 PPM, and I take makeup directly from the lake. While on the lower Delaware river, tidal and sometimes brackish, I need to stop into a marina every two hours to get potable water for makeup. The marinas, or Philadelphia Seaport Museum, always is happy to have a steamer pull up to their dock for water.

The TDS concentrates when evaporating steam (leaving the dissolved solids behind), and I blowdown accordingly to maintain around 800 PPM TDS in the boiler. I do not empty the boiler all season, only over the winter is the boiler ever empty.

The American Boiler Manufacturers Assn. recommends a maximum of 3500 PPM for a 150 PSI boiler, with much lower TDS limits for higher and higher pressures. The high TDS can promote priming (water carryover to the engine), so I try to stay well below 1000 PPM TDS.

Interesting to note that rainwater from my roof runs around 1 PPM, after about 15 minutes of rain washes the roof and I am getting unadulterated rainwater. I used the rainwater (or store bought distilled water) for my canoe flash steam plant exclusively.
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by cyberbadger » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:20 am

It makes me a little worried that I have no conception of how many gallons of lake water Nyitra uses. There are a lot of other variables I was juggling this summer.

There are some Dissolved Solids that I have thought a lot about. My father requested some of his ashes to be scattered on Lake Chautauqua. It is entirely likely that a particle of his ashes has made it through Nyitras Boiler, especially since Nyitra was docked this summer was almost exactly where his ashes were cast from my hands years earlier. Knowing his nature I think he would have approved.

-CB
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by barts » Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:57 pm

Lopez Mike wrote:You should be blowing down once a day anyhow. A bit of TSP and you will be fine.

The truly interesting thing for a non-condensing plant will be to test the lake or river water. I just took a shower at a desert campground in Arizona that almost left deposits on my hide. Looked great though! (The water, that is.)
'Blowing down' to remove sediment, rust, etc. in the bottom of the boiler doesn't remove sufficient water in most boilers to significantly change TDS, since that's distributed everywhere in the boiler. For those of us whose boats are on a mooring or dock in salt water for weeks at a time, replacing most/all of the boiler water is a task we don't relish as it involves much mucking about with containers, etc. In this case, monitoring TDS might be useful.

I have a Roberts boiler that spent years on Clear Lake, CA; it was probably rarely drained and flushed. It's definitely in need of descaling; before it goes into service as a shop boiler up on Lopez it will spend some time with some industrial descaler in the innards.

- Bart
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by cyberbadger » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:19 am

barts wrote:I have a Roberts boiler that spent years on Clear Lake, CA; it was probably rarely drained and flushed. It's definitely in need of descaling; before it goes into service as a shop boiler up on Lopez it will spend some time with some industrial descaler in the innards.
I know you will take care barts, but you have to be careful with the chemicals. The Belle folks had to correct a situation to the satisfaction of the ny state inspectors they are under as a passenger vessel that arose from the over use of chemicals on her boiler from too much scaled. It's been all cleared with whichever inspectors as a passenger vessel (PV is the start of their registration numbers) she is subject to.

I treat boiler chemistry as something that there are different equally valid approaches, but the Teryln LSB4000 Amine treatment I use doesn't really allow me to cause chemical harm like some of the approaches. You don't need much, but if you pour in many times the right amount it won't hurt anything.

As part of that treatment I occasionally do full from <30psi blowdowns after removing the fire. That really removes I think a lot of junk that can accumulate. The one 1" boiler drain goes straight down past the water line silencing the water/steam very well. If I open the valve maybe only 25% - then nobody can hear it unless they are listening for it. I don't like to do that too often and only at 30psi or less, but I have never trailed Nyitra with boiler full and don't intend to. Boiler blowdowns like this are prohibitively wasteful for a condensing plant of course.

-CB
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Re: Total Dissolved Solid Measuring

Post by barts » Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:46 am

cyberbadger wrote: I know you will take care barts, but you have to be careful with the chemicals. The Belle folks had to correct a situation to the satisfaction of the ny state inspectors they are under as a passenger vessel that arose from the over use of chemicals on her boiler from too much scaled. It's been all cleared with whichever inspectors as a passenger vessel (PV is the start of their registration numbers) she is subject to.
The commercial acid flushes are designed to be safe to use, with properly inhibited acids, etc. I'd avoid the DIY approach w/ this.

- Bart
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