Flex pipe
- Lopez Mike
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1903
- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:41 am
- Boat Name: S.L. Spiffy
- Location: Lopez Island, Washington State, USA
Re: Flex pipe
Well, I rode the isle twice and I'd rather sit on a boiler made of tin foil than do that again! I have no idea why I did it the second time. When you're in your twenties you do odd things. I'm 74 and I can't stand watching any more.
What I haven't said is that I'm red green color vision deficient and I have a hell of a time seeing the welding puddle properly. I've never been able to come up with a welding glass that works for me.
To each his last (shoemaking last, that is). I've stuck together a number of race car frames with 6013 and always turning the work so that the weld was on top. Much hilarity from my friends.
This Winter is turning out to maybe be the construction of a new hull. I know just a bit more about wood and epoxy than electric welding but I'm in negotiation with an experience friend to build the basic hull with stitch and glue techniques. When I run out of pence then I'll continue from there.
What I haven't said is that I'm red green color vision deficient and I have a hell of a time seeing the welding puddle properly. I've never been able to come up with a welding glass that works for me.
To each his last (shoemaking last, that is). I've stuck together a number of race car frames with 6013 and always turning the work so that the weld was on top. Much hilarity from my friends.
This Winter is turning out to maybe be the construction of a new hull. I know just a bit more about wood and epoxy than electric welding but I'm in negotiation with an experience friend to build the basic hull with stitch and glue techniques. When I run out of pence then I'll continue from there.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
- barts
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:08 am
- Boat Name: Otter, Rainbow
- Location: Lopez Island, WA and sometimes Menlo Park, CA
- Contact:
Re: Flex pipe
Ah. This does make things more interesting, though w/ the strong green glass everything is pretty much monochrome for me. I did discover that safety magnifying glasses are far better than my usual progressive glasses; the need to aim my helmet, glasses and work together was driving me nuts.Lopez Mike wrote: What I haven't said is that I'm red green color vision deficient and I have a hell of a time seeing the welding puddle properly. I've never been able to come up with a welding glass that works for me.
- Bart
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Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
- DetroiTug
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:56 pm
- Boat Name: Iron Chief
- Location: Northwest Detroit
Re: Flex pipe
Qoute " I've stuck together a number of race car frames with 6013 and always turning the work so that the weld was on top.""
Nothing wrong with that. Any professional at anything uses every means or technique possible to do the best job. Professional welders use turntables to rotate round pieces to weld about their circumference. The more static they can remain and comfortable they are, the better the result. I put forth effort in remaining static as much as possible .
Quote: "I know just a bit more about wood and epoxy"
Big time revolutionary in this day and age for marine woodwork, but I'm growing disillusioned and starting to question of all the epoxy mess for simple wood construction and preservation. I'm currently restoring a 116 year old steam carriage (Conrad) and have the original wood body made of Poplar and Ash. It was glued together with what looks to be resorcinol and the joints are still bonded well. The wood is in perfect condition, still had the original badly checked and peeling paint.
One of the problems with Epoxy is that it never stops curing, over many years it becomes crystalline, and there is little UV tolerance. When I was a kid we used screws and resorcinol and simply used a good sealer on the wood, then a filler coat and and good topcoat. As long as it was prepared and applied properly, it held up just fine. I know of a few people that have messed themselves up with Epoxy, they now can't be around it at all. Another guy that built Stanley reproduction bodies and used West system extensively, not an old guy and he just passed away about a year ago, not sure why. Those are some harsh chemicals in that and then the dust etc.. I'm really thinking about going back to the old ways. On the tug all of the doors and upper wood work was just Epiphane varnished, six years later, holding up fine. I did West system the deck for extra durability.
One of the issues I know with Varnish is a lot of what is sold is no good. Use Epiphanes or Deks Ole. The others I've tried aren't worth free, and cause a lot of unnecessary work redoing it. Avoid Polyurethanes.
-Ron
Nothing wrong with that. Any professional at anything uses every means or technique possible to do the best job. Professional welders use turntables to rotate round pieces to weld about their circumference. The more static they can remain and comfortable they are, the better the result. I put forth effort in remaining static as much as possible .
Quote: "I know just a bit more about wood and epoxy"
Big time revolutionary in this day and age for marine woodwork, but I'm growing disillusioned and starting to question of all the epoxy mess for simple wood construction and preservation. I'm currently restoring a 116 year old steam carriage (Conrad) and have the original wood body made of Poplar and Ash. It was glued together with what looks to be resorcinol and the joints are still bonded well. The wood is in perfect condition, still had the original badly checked and peeling paint.
One of the problems with Epoxy is that it never stops curing, over many years it becomes crystalline, and there is little UV tolerance. When I was a kid we used screws and resorcinol and simply used a good sealer on the wood, then a filler coat and and good topcoat. As long as it was prepared and applied properly, it held up just fine. I know of a few people that have messed themselves up with Epoxy, they now can't be around it at all. Another guy that built Stanley reproduction bodies and used West system extensively, not an old guy and he just passed away about a year ago, not sure why. Those are some harsh chemicals in that and then the dust etc.. I'm really thinking about going back to the old ways. On the tug all of the doors and upper wood work was just Epiphane varnished, six years later, holding up fine. I did West system the deck for extra durability.
One of the issues I know with Varnish is a lot of what is sold is no good. Use Epiphanes or Deks Ole. The others I've tried aren't worth free, and cause a lot of unnecessary work redoing it. Avoid Polyurethanes.
-Ron
- barts
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:08 am
- Boat Name: Otter, Rainbow
- Location: Lopez Island, WA and sometimes Menlo Park, CA
- Contact:
Re: Flex pipe
This is excellent. Boats rot due to fresh water, not salt... so keeping the deck from leaking is key to long boat life if the spaces underneath are enclosed. I've known people to put salt in boats that had leaking decks to make sure that any water pooling inside would not generate dry rot.DetroiTug wrote:Qoute " I did West system the deck for extra durability.
I've used epoxy on boats and our Airstream trailer. Use barrier cream against incidental contact and gloves on your hands; it's nothing you want on your skin. Epoxy sensitization is definitely a real problem.
- Bart
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Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
- cyberbadger
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1123
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:16 pm
- Boat Name: SL Nyitra
- Location: Northeast Ohio, USA
Re: Flex pipe
You have to pick and choose.barts wrote:I'd rather weld my own boiler than race in the Isle of Mann TT , but to each his own perceived risks.
I can make ugly but strong oxy-acetylene stick welds, but I know I have no business building a boiler.
The ASME clover on Nyitra's VFT is worth ever cent I paid for peace of mind. Also I find it nice to reassure anyone that even though the engine is 115 years old, the boiler is only 2 years old and compliant with essentially the law of the land. Also Helps the boiler hold value better and make it more likely to be able to re-purposed without issues.
For reference - my boiler was MIG welded with some fancy spark plasma waveform shaping nonsense.
---
VFT FTW! (For The Win)
Firetube boilers are just more forgiving and stable. Like a small Cessna if you let go of the stick. Just rights itself to level stable flight.
BTW I did not know the 5/10 sqft rule of thumb for ft/wt!! Makes perfect sense from what I'm seeing and hearing about Iron Chief. Nyitra is 72qtft for 6Hp, so that's almost perfect (at least ballpark).
-CB
- DetroiTug
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:56 pm
- Boat Name: Iron Chief
- Location: Northwest Detroit
Re: Flex pipe
Oh yeah, pros use MIG for boiler construction, but they know and understand it well enough to ensure satisfactory welds. Most people that MIG weld, myself included, don't. That is why I said I'd never use it for that. I read a story about ten years ago and didn't truly understand the magnitude of this chaps disappointment until later on. He went and bought and machined all the components for a big Roberts boiler (alot of money). His neighbor offered to weld it up for him, "sure I know how to MIG weld", "piece of cake" etc. When he got done they tried to hydrotest it and he said it looked like a giant lawn sprinkler . That may have been on this forum when it was on another domain or maybe the Yahoo steamboat group, can't remember.
Just use an arc welder with 7018 rod, no freebies on that, if the weld is no good, the guy doing it will know right away
Yes the Firetube is much more stable and perfect for the new fireman or one that isn't in a hurry. In the case of Iron Chief, she needs a big boiler which means a big VFT and results in long start up times and lots of fuel under way. I'm ready to make a change on that.
-Ron
Just use an arc welder with 7018 rod, no freebies on that, if the weld is no good, the guy doing it will know right away
Yes the Firetube is much more stable and perfect for the new fireman or one that isn't in a hurry. In the case of Iron Chief, she needs a big boiler which means a big VFT and results in long start up times and lots of fuel under way. I'm ready to make a change on that.
-Ron
- barts
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:08 am
- Boat Name: Otter, Rainbow
- Location: Lopez Island, WA and sometimes Menlo Park, CA
- Contact:
Re: Flex pipe
I'll come out and say that water tube boilers are best with oil firing; their quick reactions times match a fire that can be quickly adjusted to suite conditions/lack of feed water, etc. If you're planning on using solid fuel, I think a fire tube boiler (or at least a lot of water capacity in a water tube) is a better plan.
- Bart
- Bart
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Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
- DetroiTug
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:56 pm
- Boat Name: Iron Chief
- Location: Northwest Detroit
Re: Flex pipe
Quote: "a fire tube boiler (or at least a lot of water capacity in a water tube) is a better plan."
Exactly. When I reboiler with an Ofeldt, I'm going to use a 10" center drum, coupled with the coils, it should have a normal steaming water volume of about 4 gallons. I know this reads as blasphemous to the group, but an all steel welded Ofledt can be ran completely out of water without damage. Within reason and which of course should be avoided. With only around 6 quarts of water, I've accidentally done it twice on my car, still hydros just fine. When they anneal a boiler like that (and that should be done really) in a furnace, it's red hot. Of course, I cut the fire and make sure it cools down before trying to add any water.
I'm going to mount an upside down cone on the bottom of the centerdrum to deflect heat away so as not to disrupt the natural circulation. This should direct all the fire up the sides and through the coils. That's the plan anyway
-Ron
Exactly. When I reboiler with an Ofeldt, I'm going to use a 10" center drum, coupled with the coils, it should have a normal steaming water volume of about 4 gallons. I know this reads as blasphemous to the group, but an all steel welded Ofledt can be ran completely out of water without damage. Within reason and which of course should be avoided. With only around 6 quarts of water, I've accidentally done it twice on my car, still hydros just fine. When they anneal a boiler like that (and that should be done really) in a furnace, it's red hot. Of course, I cut the fire and make sure it cools down before trying to add any water.
I'm going to mount an upside down cone on the bottom of the centerdrum to deflect heat away so as not to disrupt the natural circulation. This should direct all the fire up the sides and through the coils. That's the plan anyway
-Ron
- cyberbadger
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1123
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:16 pm
- Boat Name: SL Nyitra
- Location: Northeast Ohio, USA
Re: Flex pipe
I went on the Chautauqua Belle today and they have Scotch Marine that is fired with No 2 Fuel Oil.
Some of the struggles she encounters is there are different crew that have operated her at different times and some of them have operated her better then others. Some of her Captains are more willing to work with her steam plant, some prefer not to stop or reduce firing the boiler and keep full pressure until they Dock because they may not be the best at maneuvering her and want to have all their available power onhand even with the electric bow and stern thrusters.
They have had water troubles, they suck up Chautauqua Lake Water same as I do. But in the height of the tourist season they can be steaming multiple sailings a day for weeks - so the boiler doesn't even fully cool down for up to weeks. So that's a heck of a lot more wear and tear then maybe 5-6? sailings for Nyitra this summer. Apparently the other year they ran for a season without any treatment and it got a lot of calcium build up. They were then sold some boiler treatment solution that has been difficult for them to get the dosing right.
If you get down to the brass tacks though the Belle has to be financially viable to be out on the Lake - that's what I personally want to see. In order to do that practically, they have to make business decisions - not always what would be best for her steam plant.
Her biggest issue in my mind is the actual die s-e-l generator on the bow. It is the loudest thing apart from her whistle. They need the electricity to run everything including the automatic firing of her boiler. Its not practical to have a fireman, and she's not setup for firing without electricity nowdays. The current primary two feed sources are 2 are electrical pumps. Apparently 20? years they had a quite large steam pump, but a crack developed in the casting that was unfixable. A skinner uniflow generator set was purchased 10? years ago and is in the engine room. Unfortunately it only ran for a short time but not used much because she was a steam hog. This skinner has been in the engine room for maybe 5 years in unuseable condition. It is a minor point of contention for the crew. The engineer I talked to would like at minimum see the skinner gen set put back together ready to be the backup for the die s-e-l generator. Since the Belle critically depends on electricity it would be more robust to have the skinner available as backup even if they don't want to run it during regular service because of fuel cost issues.
The bow and thrusters were a smart modern addition added in the last 10-15 years. They allowed her to open up new service to the Chautauqua Institution. I don't love them as hardcore steam enthusiast - but I see that it was a wise business decision that allows her to extend her operating life by bringing in more paying customers. Primarily her propulsion is still the two steam cylinders and Scotch Marine Boiler. The Boiler is rated for 100Hp, and the engines are about 20Hp per cylinder.
-CB
Some of the struggles she encounters is there are different crew that have operated her at different times and some of them have operated her better then others. Some of her Captains are more willing to work with her steam plant, some prefer not to stop or reduce firing the boiler and keep full pressure until they Dock because they may not be the best at maneuvering her and want to have all their available power onhand even with the electric bow and stern thrusters.
They have had water troubles, they suck up Chautauqua Lake Water same as I do. But in the height of the tourist season they can be steaming multiple sailings a day for weeks - so the boiler doesn't even fully cool down for up to weeks. So that's a heck of a lot more wear and tear then maybe 5-6? sailings for Nyitra this summer. Apparently the other year they ran for a season without any treatment and it got a lot of calcium build up. They were then sold some boiler treatment solution that has been difficult for them to get the dosing right.
If you get down to the brass tacks though the Belle has to be financially viable to be out on the Lake - that's what I personally want to see. In order to do that practically, they have to make business decisions - not always what would be best for her steam plant.
Her biggest issue in my mind is the actual die s-e-l generator on the bow. It is the loudest thing apart from her whistle. They need the electricity to run everything including the automatic firing of her boiler. Its not practical to have a fireman, and she's not setup for firing without electricity nowdays. The current primary two feed sources are 2 are electrical pumps. Apparently 20? years they had a quite large steam pump, but a crack developed in the casting that was unfixable. A skinner uniflow generator set was purchased 10? years ago and is in the engine room. Unfortunately it only ran for a short time but not used much because she was a steam hog. This skinner has been in the engine room for maybe 5 years in unuseable condition. It is a minor point of contention for the crew. The engineer I talked to would like at minimum see the skinner gen set put back together ready to be the backup for the die s-e-l generator. Since the Belle critically depends on electricity it would be more robust to have the skinner available as backup even if they don't want to run it during regular service because of fuel cost issues.
The bow and thrusters were a smart modern addition added in the last 10-15 years. They allowed her to open up new service to the Chautauqua Institution. I don't love them as hardcore steam enthusiast - but I see that it was a wise business decision that allows her to extend her operating life by bringing in more paying customers. Primarily her propulsion is still the two steam cylinders and Scotch Marine Boiler. The Boiler is rated for 100Hp, and the engines are about 20Hp per cylinder.
-CB