the miracle of engine starting?

A special section just for steam engines and boilers, as without these you may as well fit a sail.
wsmcycle
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the miracle of engine starting?

Post by wsmcycle » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:49 pm

I took the big boat out today with a friend to help. Had 120# of pressure as we pushed off from the dock. Steam has been leaking through the cylinders and packing for 15 minutes. LETS GO Kerplunk the engine moves a bit and stops. I need it to run! I try reverse then forward to oscillate it in hopes that it will turn over and run. BUT no its locked now, wont budge! Cut off the steam and grab the giant open end 1.5 inch wrench to move it off of what appears to be dead center. Again and again i repeat but each time it simply moves 1/4 turn and stops. and then finally for no apparent difference it takes off (in reverse) I desperately need to go forward away from the dock. I cut the steam and try to start in the forward rotation but it wont do it. Over and Over and then It takes off!
I hate this unsure non-method. Is there some secret? This is a Navy K two cylinder engine! What makes it lock like a single cylinder in THE bad position?
I am off the water now boat is put up and I am asking for help.

1 warm engine with cocks open
2 open the simpling valve
3 move lever to forward
4 open the steam valve
LIGHT THE FIRE!!
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by asal0312 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:25 pm

Still condensation in the cylinders? I have a compound, it takes forever for the LP to warm up when cold. At least fifteen minutes warming with the cocks open, but this usually only warms one side of the HP piston. Rock the engine until it makes a full revolution on its own. Then I let it idle at the dock until the LP comes up to temperature, usually another fifteen minutes at least. Only then do I attempt to leave the dock. As the engine continues to warm, I'll still get condensation out of the LP until everything is nice and hot about a half hour later on a fast run. A navy k is similar in size to my engine. I suspect you just need to be more patient and thorough warming up the engine, unless of course it is something more serious. Don't force it or you'll blow the heads off or bend the valve rods.
Houses are but badly built boats so firmly aground you cannot think of moving them.
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by wsmcycle » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:04 pm

I thought I had it warmed but your suggestion is logical however, it ran in reverse.
I suppose I could open the cock on the secondary and close the simpling valve which would make it a single?
LIGHT THE FIRE!!
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by swedtug » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:25 pm

I would check that none of the exentrix has moved then I would check the lock nuts on the slides. have had the problem once that a nut came lose it had the Engine to go so uneven that the propeller shaft coupling cracked . no fun.
had to leave the boat at a bridge and go home and weld and machine a new coupling tll the next day

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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by cyberbadger » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:33 am

i thought there were different timing on the angles between cylinders for different steam engines and some were more guaranteed to be always self starting based on this design choice???

I have heard of very large steam ships such as those they had running on the great lakes where it was said that the engines were only really working well and happy after 24hrs of running for everything to completely warm up!

-CB
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by TahoeSteam » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:45 am

I believe the eccentrics are keyed to the shaft on the K... I'll have to look at my set of drawings again, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to check anyway. Keys have been known to rust out and sometimes fall out. Sometimes the lock nuts on the valve stem magically loosen and the valves end up having a lot of slop in their travel as well.

Thorough warming-through and at least running smoothly before leaving the dock is imperative, especially the larger you go. I would start warming the engine with 10 or 20 psi on the clock to give it a lot of time to warm through. With drain cocks and simpling valve open (get that hot live steam into the LP), rock the links periodically (moving to reverse for a minute, then back to forward for a minute, in theory warming both sides of the pistons). If you do this with the HP about 1/4 off top dead or bottom dead center, eventually it should try to turn over on its own. Once running smoothly and continuously for several minutes you can consider closing the drain cocks, closing the LP last... If you hear a metallic "ping" or sharp "snap" open the drain cocks a bit longer. Those sounds are indicators of water in the cylinders which has been known to blow off heads, bend rods, and crack cylinders.

I would consider plumbing in small pressure relief valves set to your boiler pressure into your drain cocks on a "T" or something, between the engine and the drain cock valves. Those will help prevent damage in the chance you get a slug of water into the engine. Slide valves like your LP are designed to lift off the valve face a limited amount in the case of water entering the engine, but piston valves like your HP cannot.
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by TahoeSteam » Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:48 am

cyberbadger wrote:i thought there were different timing on the angles between cylinders for different steam engines and some were more guaranteed to be always self starting based on this design choice???

I have heard of very large steam ships such as those they had running on the great lakes where it was said that the engines were only really working well and happy after 24hrs of running for everything to completely warm up!

-CB
If you had a double-simple with 90* cranks it would certainly be self-starting. I've seen compounds do it with the simpling valve open, I've also seen them need some "persuasion" to get it to work... Having the HP off of TDC or BDC and having a simpling valve is imperative IMO, on triples as well.

There's a TON (TONS actually) of cast iron and steel to warm in those big ship engines. It took many hours for the Hercules' engine to completely warm-through when we were on her last month.
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by RGSP » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:22 am

I really can't think of any way that a conventional twin cylinder steam ending with piston or slide valves, simple or compound, could run in reverse if the valve timing is correct.
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by fredrosse » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:50 pm

RGSP wrote:I really can't think of any way that a conventional twin cylinder steam ending with piston or slide valves, simple or compound, could run in reverse if the valve timing is correct.
I believe the operator had the engine in reverse when it began running in reverse rotation?
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Re: the miracle of engine starting?

Post by cyberbadger » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:51 pm

TahoeSteam wrote:
cyberbadger wrote:If you had a double-simple with 90* cranks it would certainly be self-starting.
Nyitra's 1902 Toledo is a double simple, I don't know about the crank angle though.

I forget sometimes it's a bit different with condensing, especially if you don't have some sort of simpling valve.

-CB
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