Using TSP as boiler cleaner
-
- Just Starting Out
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:52 pm
- Boat Name: Adamant
- Location: Midlands UK
Using TSP as boiler cleaner
I wonder, does anyone have any experience of using TSP (tri sodium phosphate) as a cleaning agent to remove oily deposits from inside a boiler? My boiler seems to collect oil whatever I do to try to keep it out! Suggestions as to strength of solution etc would be most welcome as well as info on possible downsides.
- cyberbadger
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1123
- Joined: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:16 pm
- Boat Name: SL Nyitra
- Location: Northeast Ohio, USA
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
I did this with my brand new boiler.
2lbs TSP per 100 gallons water
and 2lbs Soda ash per 100 gallons.
Boiler with a light fire and open to atmoshpere, boil for 1 hr.
Then a drain and rinse with water. (I think I let it cool first)
See smokstak link:
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105599
and steamboating forum link:
http://www.thesteamboatingforum.net/for ... &hilit=tsp
If you are near Akron Ohio I have 49lbs of soda ash - you can have some for free.
-CB
2lbs TSP per 100 gallons water
and 2lbs Soda ash per 100 gallons.
Boiler with a light fire and open to atmoshpere, boil for 1 hr.
Then a drain and rinse with water. (I think I let it cool first)
See smokstak link:
http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105599
and steamboating forum link:
http://www.thesteamboatingforum.net/for ... &hilit=tsp
If you are near Akron Ohio I have 49lbs of soda ash - you can have some for free.
-CB
- Lopez Mike
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1903
- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:41 am
- Boat Name: S.L. Spiffy
- Location: Lopez Island, Washington State, USA
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
There is some question whether oil in a boiler is a problem. The was one brand of steam car that added ordinary motor oil to the water in a condensing system. I'll go look in my Clymer Steam Car book and see if I can find the reference again.
(Found it. It was the Doble Model B.)
It is possible that a film of oil might act as an unwelcome insulating layer. At the temperatures in our boilers I can't see the oil carbonizing.
The U.S. navy had strict limits on oil contamination. I'm not sure which component of a system would be harmed by the oil.
My solution is to not use internal lubrication since at 140 pounds and less the temps aren't high enough to need it.
(Found it. It was the Doble Model B.)
It is possible that a film of oil might act as an unwelcome insulating layer. At the temperatures in our boilers I can't see the oil carbonizing.
The U.S. navy had strict limits on oil contamination. I'm not sure which component of a system would be harmed by the oil.
My solution is to not use internal lubrication since at 140 pounds and less the temps aren't high enough to need it.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
-
- Just Starting Out
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:52 pm
- Boat Name: Adamant
- Location: Midlands UK
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
Gosh! Thanks guys, replies in less than 24 hours; wonderful.
I too have heard that oil is not really a problem in our low pressure boilers as they simply do not get hot enough for the oil to carbonise. My problem is that having a canal boat, my make up water is often very muddy and the combination of mud and oil sticks thickly to the fire tubes (it is a VFT boiler) and I want to get rid of it and let the normal treatment do its stuff properly by forming iron tannate on the surface - I use Multitreat TS - which many in the UK use with steel boilers. It seems therefore that TSP is probably the way to go.
I too have heard that oil is not really a problem in our low pressure boilers as they simply do not get hot enough for the oil to carbonise. My problem is that having a canal boat, my make up water is often very muddy and the combination of mud and oil sticks thickly to the fire tubes (it is a VFT boiler) and I want to get rid of it and let the normal treatment do its stuff properly by forming iron tannate on the surface - I use Multitreat TS - which many in the UK use with steel boilers. It seems therefore that TSP is probably the way to go.
- Lopez Mike
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1903
- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:41 am
- Boat Name: S.L. Spiffy
- Location: Lopez Island, Washington State, USA
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
Are you using that much makeup water? I tend to use perhaps a gallon every ten hours, mostly from blowing the whistle.
My makeup water come from my home tap. Very clear.
My makeup water come from my home tap. Very clear.
If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito.
Dalai Lama
Dalai Lama
- DetroiTug
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1863
- Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:56 pm
- Boat Name: Iron Chief
- Location: Northwest Detroit
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
"There is some question whether oil in a boiler is a problem. The was one brand of steam car that added ordinary motor oil to the water in a condensing system. I'll go look in my Clymer Steam Car book and see if I can find the reference again.
(Found it. It was the Doble Model B.)""
It appears Abner Doble had that opinion for a very short time. I think once the theory was put to the test he changed his mind. In steam car circles it's been discussed and pretty much dismissed as bad practice. Many stories about someone ruining their boiler etc. Doble only built about 40 cars and no two were identical. His last few cars were considered by many to be the best steam cars ever built. Super genius.
Those discussions go something like this: Oil and water don't mix, oil is lighter than water so it rises to the top resulting in a layer of oil on top of the boiler water. Surfaces above the water can overheat at fire up because there is no internal circulation resulting in the oil carbonizing.
Anecdotal, but when I was a kid we had a little Weeden steam engine and we had the idea to put a dew drops of oil in the boiler to lubricate the engine, bad idea, it was very difficult to get up steam after that.
Re: TSP. Be careful with aluminum pistons. It doesn't like aluminum.
-Ron
(Found it. It was the Doble Model B.)""
It appears Abner Doble had that opinion for a very short time. I think once the theory was put to the test he changed his mind. In steam car circles it's been discussed and pretty much dismissed as bad practice. Many stories about someone ruining their boiler etc. Doble only built about 40 cars and no two were identical. His last few cars were considered by many to be the best steam cars ever built. Super genius.
Those discussions go something like this: Oil and water don't mix, oil is lighter than water so it rises to the top resulting in a layer of oil on top of the boiler water. Surfaces above the water can overheat at fire up because there is no internal circulation resulting in the oil carbonizing.
Anecdotal, but when I was a kid we had a little Weeden steam engine and we had the idea to put a dew drops of oil in the boiler to lubricate the engine, bad idea, it was very difficult to get up steam after that.
Re: TSP. Be careful with aluminum pistons. It doesn't like aluminum.
-Ron
- barts
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1070
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:08 am
- Boat Name: Otter, Rainbow
- Location: Lopez Island, WA and sometimes Menlo Park, CA
- Contact:
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
I always use TSP (perhaps 1 tsp/5 gallons) as feed water treatment in my boiler; if I need to clean it I make a more concentrated solution.
I think easily damaged tubes (copper) or high rates of fire would be more problematic. I carry the water level above the tubes in Otter's boiler. I don't think an oil film matters much on the drum; the metal conducts heat nicely anyway.
- Bart
I think easily damaged tubes (copper) or high rates of fire would be more problematic. I carry the water level above the tubes in Otter's boiler. I don't think an oil film matters much on the drum; the metal conducts heat nicely anyway.
- Bart
-------
Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
-
- Steam on Deck
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:56 am
- Boat Name: victoria
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
I dump a bit into the Stanley condenser before a run that way it gets washed into the water tank while running, oil IS a problem in those boilers. I don't in the boat, but I hardly lube the motor. BUT here in California we now can only get NON phosphate, trisodium eer phosphate, I've got no Idea if that helps the boiler at all!! rp
- fredrosse
- Full Steam Ahead
- Posts: 1906
- Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 5:34 am
- Boat Name: Margaret S.
- Location: Phila PA USA
- Contact:
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
Oil in the boiler is to be avoided, and it will bake onto waterside surfaces and form an insulating layer. This in turn allows the metal to overheat, baking the oil into a hard insulating scale. This process is self-promoting, as boiler performance degrades, a more intense fire is needed to generate enough steam, and hence hotter metal temperatures, more (thicker) baked oil insulating layer, etc. In reciprocating engine service, the allowable limit of emulsified oil in the water is typically specified at 10 PPM (Parts per Million) maximum.
While lower steam temperatures typical for our launches results in generally lower metal temperatures, with less tendency for burned on oil layers within the boiler, the real culprit is the intensity of heat flow at the boiling interface, hence a forced high intensity fire will burn on oil deposits even if you are only generating 50 PSI steam. Some launch boilers live a happy life with oil inside the water space, but these applications seem always to be in boilers that have a very low duty cycle as well as low pressure (less than 150 PSIG). The heat flow is low enough that the oil film never gets intense heat flux, and the oil remains essentially liquid coating film. This condition is unpredictable, and will only work in low heat duty boilers.
While lower steam temperatures typical for our launches results in generally lower metal temperatures, with less tendency for burned on oil layers within the boiler, the real culprit is the intensity of heat flow at the boiling interface, hence a forced high intensity fire will burn on oil deposits even if you are only generating 50 PSI steam. Some launch boilers live a happy life with oil inside the water space, but these applications seem always to be in boilers that have a very low duty cycle as well as low pressure (less than 150 PSIG). The heat flow is low enough that the oil film never gets intense heat flux, and the oil remains essentially liquid coating film. This condition is unpredictable, and will only work in low heat duty boilers.
-
- Just Starting Out
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:52 pm
- Boat Name: Adamant
- Location: Midlands UK
Re: Using TSP as boiler cleaner
Thanks every one for your useful answers. My particular problem is that my boiler inspector likes me to completely fill the boiler via injector at the end of a days run to "kill the oxygen". My boiler capacity is around 40 gals (UK gals that is!) and the difference between working level and completely full is about 20 gals. Hence the mud! We do quite extensive cruises on the canals here, maybe 8 hours a day and the trip can last 3 days to a week. If I am steaming the next day I don't fill the boiler right up but let it cool naturally (can be very hot sleeping aboard!) and I guess I use maybe 5 gals make up per day. My regular crew does blow the whistle a lot! I shall try the TSP and see if it makes any difference. I did try a wash with caustic soda some time ago but had little success except for the timber engine room floor where the impregnated oil turned nicely to soap and I had a nasty fall! Little effect on the boiler though. Maybe a long term solution is called for and am considering adding some TSP as well as my tanning based treatment. Any comments?
ALSO any problems with foaming when using TSP please?
Thanks all
Phil
ALSO any problems with foaming when using TSP please?
Thanks all
Phil