Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alternator

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Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alternator

Post by cyberbadger » Thu Feb 25, 2016 4:19 pm

Hi,

I have seen several posters ask about steam electricity generation so I thought I'd share how I've done it as I am redoing it for the boiler for the Nyitra I.

My "big secret" to success has been Wind Blue Powers Alternators. They start with an American Delco alternator, change the rotor to a permanent magnet so a battery is not required to energize the field coils, and rewire the coil to operate at slower speeds. They sell them for small Wind Turbines, but wind turbines and steam engines share similar characteristics of slower speeds and higher torque.

I've done this before, so don't think too hard about why I had trouble last night. This first video from last night is just the first one I'm sharing with my new boiler - if you poke through my youtube channel (also cyberbadger) you will find some old videos of steam electricity generation. I promise there will eventually a day time video that is clearer. I like to generate electric light at night.

I have bought and successfully used two of these alternators from Windlue - one produces 12V at 130RPM - the other at 240RPM.
http://www.windbluepower.com/category_s/1.htm

If you have a Delco alternator laying around they sell just the permanent magnet rotor and the windings to save on cash. I bought mine fully converted.

With the DC-540 Low Wind Permanent Magnet Alternator I made 350Watts continuously with the Engine from J Winn from Abington that was in the Chimera I/Chimera II - a single cylinder 2.75 inch bore by 3 inch stroke.
http://www.windbluepower.com/Permanent_ ... dc-540.htm

With the DC-520 High Wind Permanent Magnet Alternator I made 100W continuously with a Stuart 4A.
http://www.windbluepower.com/Permanent_ ... dc-520.htm

Keep in mind - I'm sure I could get more out of both combinations. I did no calculations on v belt ratios or anything special.

It's important to note for both setups I really was only running 12V DC lights. No inductive or capacitive or voltage sensitive loads.

If you stick a battery in the mix it will clamp down the voltage and hold it around the 11-14V DC for more picky loads such as 120 (or for you folks across the pond and eleswheres 240) V AC car inverters to get mains electricity.



-CB
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by Mike Rometer » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:22 pm

Not that I know a lot about this, not having explored all the possibilities, but this seems to me to be an excellent fix. Most auto alternators require relatively high speeds, but one that has been converted to accept slower speeds seems to be ideal for our use. My own thoughts have been along the P.V. cell route, left connected 24/7 they should have no problem keeping a leisure battery in top condition, but it presumes that there is somewhere suitable, like a canopy to place the cells.

"Good idea son" as a certain 1950's entertainer on the east side of the pond, used to say (Max Bygraves to Archie Andrews, before you ask).
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by fredrosse » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:59 pm

Any PM motor (Permanent Magnet Motor) can be used as a generator. However voltage generation depends on the RPM of the generator. I use a 3/4 horsepower Pacific Scientific motor on my electric boat, 24VDC at 1800RPM. Loading the motor to 3/4 horsepower, RPM drops to about 1750RPM, and consumes 29 AMPS@24VDC. Driving this generator up to about 1850RPM produces electric generation of 29 AMPS@24VDC.

At half these speeds, 12VDC results. Got mine new on e-bay for $40US, it is rated for continuous duty, and has driven the electric boat (1200 pounds displacement, 5MPH), swinging a 14 x 17 inch prop at a couple hundred RPM (v-belt drive) for over 10 years now. The boat runs at either 12VDC or 24VDC with two large deep cycle marine batteries, series/parallel relays.

I guess some manipulation with electrics could allow reasonable generation at a desired voltage and variable driving RPM, but I don't know how.
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by barts » Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:39 pm

The trick is how fast do you want to charge your batteries?

Take a look at the output charts on those different alternators; the ones that provide output at low speeds don't produce a lot of power at high speeds. The DC540 puts out 18A at 2000 rpm, the DC-500 puts out 120 A.

Those low RPM units are great if you're using a small stream or a trickle of wind... but if you can, belt up one of the higher RPM units and benefit from much more rapid battery charging.

Personally, I'd be inclined to use a Balmer small-case alternator w/ 3 step regulator for a boat that really needed battery charging, and had the engine (2-3 spare HP) to push it. Proper regulation and prevention of overcharging is essential, and this would let one use a small Danfoss compressor fridge, or a household-style oil burner running on 12V. If I didn't have high amperage draws, I'd probably skip the alternator entirely.

I'd always first use solar panels; 200W of panels will do a lot of battery charging even on cloudy days, and a set of house batteries last a long longer if charge is maintained at a proper temp. compensated voltage continuously. Most of us don't get to steam as often as we want, and the solar panels work every day at keeping the batteries charged and ready to go.

For boats that spend much of their time moored in the water, I think a solar panel, battery and proper electric bilge pump are essential.

- Bart
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by Mike Rometer » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:01 am

As you suggest it largely depends on what you want the electricity for. We don't need starter motors, windscreen wipers, or heated rear screens, so current demands are really quite low. Lighting is the most likely, and modern LED lighting takes very little power and can, in a lot of cases, be covered by replaceable cells.
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by Lopez Mike » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:36 am

Bart,

I've been using a small (2 cu. ft.) propane RV fridge in my sailboat now for 28 years with zero problems. Living in Baja. Crossing oceans. Just runs. Uses two gallons of propane a week. And then you can use propane for cooking too. The bugbear of propane in a boat is just that, a bug bear. Plumb it in with decent materials and no issues. The disasters I know about have been from mixing propane with alcohol. Careless drunks, so to speak.

Now the generator issue. I have been fascinated with the Firefly power plant used in WW2 by clandestine forces. A Stuart Sirius fed by a double height pressure cooker driving a small generator producing about 4 amps at 6v. Just a battery charger but a starting point for what I am interested in which is a quiet version of a Honda generator. Not anywhere near that sort of output but enough to keep my RV bank topped off when camped for longer periods of time. So far, solar is the logical way to go but if I were logical would I own a steam boat?

The Firefly plant used batch operation and was non-condensing. I would need to condense as I camp in the desert with limited water supplies but batch operation does eliminate a lot of complication and is quite compatible with charging batteries.

Could I condense by exhausting through a coil of copper tubing immersed in a few gallons of water? The bucket of water sized so that just as the 'boiler' ran to of water, the bucket needed emptying. Back into the boiler, of course. By the time the remaining water in the bucket cooled down, it would be time to build a fire and run another batch through. Five gallons in the boiler when full. A ten gallon condenser bucket starting half full. Hmm. This pig is getting big.

The Firefly boiler was just a double height pressure cooker. I don't think it even had any sort of level gauge. When it stopped putting out steam then it was out of water. Counter intuitive to our fears of low water level causing failure of a pressure vessel. But unless you persevered in firing until you succeeding in melting the bottom out of the pressure cooker, not an issue.

I have a Stuart 4A that is just sitting there looking cool. I have some computer tape drive motors that need to be bolted up to the lathe and characterized. Toothed belts are quiet and reliable.

Silence is golden in the Baja desert. I must give this more thought. Maybe scaling everything down. Maybe a feed water pump. maybe an air cooled condenser? Thoughts?
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by cyberbadger » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:47 pm

Took apart the alternator.
That's a 12VDC light bulb in the picture for reference.

The permanent magnet grabbed this teeny drill bit.
Image

A well made small model engine is happier running in my humble opinion. Besides, lets me run something small as a conversation piece in harbour. It's perfectly happy running at 30PSI or less and given this boiler in comparison to it really only sips the steam for taste like a wine connoisseur. :)

I'm really trying to avoid a battery, it may not be possible or practical in the end but that's one of my "requirements" right now. Sure you can get more amp hour charging out of other setups, but this should offer some options to play around with things and still have something that can get me essentially at a minimum a 10Amp battery charger if needed.

-CB
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by barts » Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:28 am

Lopez Mike wrote:Bart,

I've been using a small (2 cu. ft.) propane RV fridge in my sailboat now for 28 years with zero problems. Living in Baja. Crossing oceans. Just runs. Uses two gallons of propane a week. And then you can use propane for cooking too. The bugbear of propane in a boat is just that, a bug bear. Plumb it in with decent materials and no issues. The disasters I know about have been from mixing propane with alcohol. Careless drunks, so to speak.

Now the generator issue. I have been fascinated with the Firefly power plant used in WW2 by clandestine forces. A Stuart Sirius fed by a double height pressure cooker driving a small generator producing about 4 amps at 6v. Just a battery charger but a starting point for what I am interested in which is a quiet version of a Honda generator. Not anywhere near that sort of output but enough to keep my RV bank topped off when camped for longer periods of time. So far, solar is the logical way to go but if I were logical would I own a steam boat?

The Firefly plant used batch operation and was non-condensing. I would need to condense as I camp in the desert with limited water supplies but batch operation does eliminate a lot of complication and is quite compatible with charging batteries.

Could I condense by exhausting through a coil of copper tubing immersed in a few gallons of water? The bucket of water sized so that just as the 'boiler' ran to of water, the bucket needed emptying. Back into the boiler, of course. By the time the remaining water in the bucket cooled down, it would be time to build a fire and run another batch through. Five gallons in the boiler when full. A ten gallon condenser bucket starting half full. Hmm. This pig is getting big.

The Firefly boiler was just a double height pressure cooker. I don't think it even had any sort of level gauge. When it stopped putting out steam then it was out of water. Counter intuitive to our fears of low water level causing failure of a pressure vessel. But unless you persevered in firing until you succeeding in melting the bottom out of the pressure cooker, not an issue.

I have a Stuart 4A that is just sitting there looking cool. I have some computer tape drive motors that need to be bolted up to the lathe and characterized. Toothed belts are quiet and reliable.

Silence is golden in the Baja desert. I must give this more thought. Maybe scaling everything down. Maybe a feed water pump. maybe an air cooled condenser? Thoughts?
Mike -

I have a propane setup in the Airsteam - it works well, but it does like propane, esp. if it's warm. I run it on AC whenever we're hooked up, of course. For the boat, the Danfoss uses about 25 amp-hours/day on 12 V, so those 200W solar panels can keep up during the summer anyway. The Danfoss units like to use the water as a heatsink - big help of efficiency, of course, compared to the tubing on the back of the fridge on the 'stream.

For desert use, I'd run it at night, when you need more power, you'll more appreciate the fire and the waste heat and condensing is easier. I'm not sure how cold it gets where you are at night, though. For a small model-size plant, I'd think about radiant heat loss; the clear desert sky is a good place to shed some BTU. Maybe a couple of lengths of black pipe... For a boiler, I'd use some bent up 1/8" steel pipe, and a dual poppet valve, single acting engine w/ a nice flywheel... if you want to run it slow, you'll need a bigger engine, generator and flywheel of course.

Solar panels are much easier... maybe save the fire for toasting marshmellows.

- Bart
-------
Bart Smaalders http://smaalders.net/barts Lopez Island, WA
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by Lopez Mike » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:07 pm

Of course all of this is impractical as hell. May I call to your attention this phrase from my post? "If I were logical would I own a steam boat?" I gave up justifying these silly things ages ago!

It does get quite cold at night. I have nearly frozen my ears of in Death Valley not long after dusk. A radiant condenser just might work. It's all the usual tradeoffs between simplicity and efficiency.

On one hand, a pressure cooker over a camp fire with batch operation and at the other a microprocessor controlled hot air engine with rhomboid linkages and hydrogen at 1000 psi for a working fluid. You know my proclivities by now (grin).

This will all come to nothing I suspect but the idea of a slow turning power plant attracts me. I suppose I could glue a whole mess of these new super magnets to the #1 flywheel and build my own alternator stator. I do that now for integrated motors on larger telescope drives. Generates three phase a.c. just like the automotive units. Just a rectifier stack and control the output by adjusting the speed.
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Re: Auxilliary Engine and Wind Blue Permanent Magnet Alterna

Post by DetroiTug » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:57 pm

"This will all come to nothing I suspect but the idea of a slow turning power plant attracts me."

Me too. If a lightweight unit were built with an aluminum engine, stainless Ofeldt, reserve water tank, 12vdc/10 amps output all in an insulated suitcase type enclosure, it would be pretty cool and practical. I think it's about the only consumer steam engine related thing that there is a considerable market for in this day and age.

Seriously, with all of these off grid'ers, doomsday preppers and folks that believe we're on the brink of collapse (customers), a unit like this would sell.

Back to reality:

I have a generator on the tug. It's a Nema 23 60vdc/5000 RPM brushed DC servo motor. It's belted for ~2500 RPM and puts out about 30volts open. Connected to the battery. it puts out about 10 amps with a low battery and engine at full speed. There is no automatic regulation, just have a switch to connect it for charging. The only time its really needed is for the spotlight which draws quite a bit. Otherwise, occasional dockside charging and LED lights would probably require only one charging per year. There are a few electric pumps for boiler fill and hot/cold water, but they run very little.

-Ron
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