Buying boiler or engine

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lighthousekeeper
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Buying boiler or engine

Post by lighthousekeeper » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:01 pm

HI Folks just want to share my experience buying a boiler and engine from a guy off of ebay (union_ steam_company) I bought a boiler and single cylinder 3 inch bore 4 inch stroke off of this man in the fall of 2014 for my steam launch " Jenny Girl " This man will ask you to buy outside of ebay to save yourself money but actually save him from negative feedback on ebay. After 10 hours of operation the engine continually would break down, The brass guides for piston literally fell off, connecting rod fell apart, flywheel not installed properly, I have had this engine apart as many as 25 times, it has a serious knock and vibration now that I can't seem to fix, I have had to get many parts re machined heavier.

The boiler has many flaws, a lot of small things not built right such as ash pan not built heavy enough warped so bad I barley got it out, the whistle he sold me leaked bad, threads were crossed, steam gauge inaccurate.

In his video's everything looks great but after a short time his poor workmanship shows, I asked for a refund for the engine he refused to stand by his work. I partly blame myself his prices were great and like most people I was drawn to the lower cost, well you get what you pay for. I will chalk this up as a learning curve but just wanted to let other's to take heed and stay clear of union_steam_company In Seattle Washington.
Last edited by lighthousekeeper on Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by wsmcycle » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:58 pm

What is the user name on Ebay? I looked for unionsteam but found none. is there a current auction he has up?
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by fredrosse » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:50 pm

Look up a previous topic on this forum, titled "boiler insulation / wood staves", in the June 2015 time frame. Look at the pictures and comments on page 2 of this thread. This has a discussion about this boiler design I think.
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lighthousekeeper
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by lighthousekeeper » Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:39 pm

Sorry the proper search on ebay is for union_steam_company.

item number 262249190733
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by wsmcycle » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:26 pm

I had a problematic transaction with the seller also. I think he is sincere and loves steam devices.
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by TahoeSteam » Sat Jan 30, 2016 11:11 pm

How many more ebay boilers before there is an accident and the world comes crashing down on us?
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by Lopez Mike » Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:12 am

Amen. I know of no steaming subject about which I read and heard more alarming questions and assertions.

"I've been welding on my farm for years"
"Why can't I make my boiler out of a propane tank or hot water tank?"
"I've got a whole pile of stainless steel tubing."
"I'll just have my local shop roll up a big tube for me."
"I'll just plug up the holes in a pressure cooker."
"I found this old boiler in the woods."
And the one that makes me sit up straight and sweat at night: "I can get a lot more heat from acetylene."
Add your own nightmare here: . . . . . . . .

Most fortunately the only bang we seem to have had in the U.S. with 'hobby boilers' since forever was that traction engine and it was such an awful violation of every precept that I can think of that it surely must be classified as a family suicide pact. Darwin award candidates for sure.

In the Northwest we had a person refuse to hydro his launch boiler because, "I don't want to strain my boiler." He seemed miffed over our response.

Hell, I hydro my VFT to 225 and let it sit overnight sometimes and don't feel like I am doing it any harm whatsoever.

I believe that a neophyte can cut out their own parts with experienced guidance, and have a certified pressure vessel welder or, in a pinch, a welder with recent certification as a pipeline welder, do the work and end up with a safe unit. But only if the design is conservative and proven and with attention to details.

No wild eyed inventors please!

As to buying a used boiler with no references, read that first post and consider. It's not a pretty way to die.

There are ways to inspect a used unit. Ultrasonic thickness testers are down below $150. We have two of them in our club. A hydro test should NOT make the seller nervous. Any non- standard design should set off alarm bells. A boiler coming from a known and experienced manufacturer is reassuring.

As most of us know, the most serious reservations concern boilers with a lot of water in them. i.e. fire tube designs. As the water volume goes down, the consequences decline. A flash boiler failure (I've not seen one personally) seems as if it would have limited consequences depending, of course, on where you were standing.

The builder of my launch had essentially no contact with the steaming community. And this here in the N.W. U.S. with a very high concentration of experienced steam enthusiasts. Fortunately, he bought a ready made boiler from an experienced builder.

After recovering my presence of mind upon seeing the shut off valve to the safety valve, I scrapped most of the piping and such and now have a safe and well running power plant. I wish I could say as much about the hull. Sigh.

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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by fredrosse » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:05 pm

One method that might help as far as inspecting a boiler before purchase could be similar to the methods used for purchasing pre-owned automobiles. With used cars, it is common for the purchaser to take a mechanic along to check a few things. Even with a far away ebay purchase there are independent services that will come and check out the car before the auction begins.

The same process would be somewhat more difficult with small boilers, but I would think a prospective purchaser could get together with another steamboater, or someone in the live steam community (especially railroad live steam) to accompany them on an inspection, or at least to talk to the seller with the famous "twenty questions" which can be used to provide reasonable indication that the boiler is good or possibly bad.

Submitting drawings or photographs of a boiler here on this forum will rapidly provide forum comments giving a perspective buyer information, additional questions that should be posted to the seller, or other relevant technical information. This might save much difficulties, including potemtial failure of a boiler, for the forum members. I believe the SBA has some methods to assure better boiler safety, could an SBA member let us know how this is accomplished?

Not too long ago, the ASME code allowed miniature boilers (5 fubic feet max gross volume) to be made with relaxed rules, but always required miniature boilers to operate with 100 PSIG maximum, and a hydro test of 300PSIG. The high test pressure was to compensate for the unknowns associated with a less than rigorous design approach. The current ASME code requires the more rigorous rules, and has reduced the hydro requirement.
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by fredrosse » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:44 pm

"I've been welding on my farm for years"
ANS: Me too, made all kinds of things, steel trailers, vault doors, gates, etc. I love to weld, and have stick, tig, mig, and oxy-acetelene. But I am lousy at pressure vessel welding, never can get a watertight seam on one pass. Simply not qualified here.

"Why can't I make my boiler out of a propane tank or hot water tank?"
ANS: The metals used here are simply not qualified for boiler service. They are also generally too thin for boiler service at 100 PSI, even though they may be rated for that pressure in their intended service. Forget about using a high pressure gas cylinder, rated at about 3600 PSIG for a boiler. These cylinders are made from high strength steel alloys that are completely unsuited for use as a fired pressure vessel, and welding to them is much more complicated than ordinary steels.

"I've got a whole pile of stainless steel tubing."
ANS: Stainless steel is generally prohibited for any wetted parts of steam boilers. Just because your kitchen sink looks good after decades of service, that is very far removed from high pressure boiler service. The ASME Boiler Code specifically prohibits this because of stress/corrosion issues here, and the stainless may look perfect to the naked eye, and be ready for catastrophic failure. While there are some special stainless steel alloys that are permitted for boilers, that pile of stainless tubing you have is probably not one of those special alloys.

"I'll just have my local shop roll up a big tube for me."
ANS: That could be OK, IFF (Mathematical term meaning "IF and Only IF) the right material is used, it is the right thickness, and the weld seam is made full penetration, and, if you want ASME Code compliance, the completed weld seam is radiographed. In my view, just pay some extra to get a boiler shell of A-106 Seamless steel pipe.

"I'll just plug up the holes in a pressure cooker."
ANS: No answer to this, except "No"

"I found this old boiler in the woods."
ANS: Almost certianly not worth restoring, the inspections to prove its integrity, plus unknown materials, unknown weld materials, unknown design integrity, etc. It probably was not thrown away without reason.

And the one that makes me sit up straight and sweat at night: "I can get a lot more heat from acetylene."
ANS: More heat? probably not, acetelene is a fuel far far more expensive than any others I can think of in terms of heat value. Higher flame temperature, yes, but to what end? Burning your boiler parts?

"You can tell if a boiler is going to let go, it will begin to creak and groan before it will burst"
ANS: In the movies you might see this, adding time for its suspense value in the theatre. A disservice to real boiler failures, where the "creak and groan" probably occur within 1/1000 second of each other, followed by failure immediately thereafter.
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Re: Buying boiler or engine

Post by DetroiTug » Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:26 pm

I build my own boilers. But I have extensive metalworking experience and wouldn't touch the work without considerable research. Proper materials, proper fitting, welding types and techniques. Adhering to ASME code as closely as possible. Boilers are nothing to experiment with in regard to design.

What convinced me to start trusting myself to do this was examining work from some qualified shops and even some code builders. The welds were cold lacking penetration, parts not fitted well - crooked etc. Lacked basic common sense in their design - poorly designed doors and draft apertures. Not saying this is a common theme, but it's apparent that some of these builders understand methods for safe boiler construction, but ignorant about building efficient boilers in regard to proper combustion and heat transfer.

I read and hear about people considering self building and they have an unsafe plan and will not deviate from it for some unknown reason. People balk at the high prices a qualified boilermaker charges and think they can do it much cheaper, in reality, what those shops charge is worth every penny. Boiler fitting and construction is very expensive and very time consuming and a lot of work if done properly. And I'm not hanging out a shingle, I still only do my own work. :)

If you want a good scare go on You tube and poke around looking for homemade boiler solutions. I've basically told a few of them to cease and get some help. And that is the solution, speak out. If you see someone doing something unsafe. tell them. Who cares if it offends them. I personally would rather be offended than dead.

-Ron
Last edited by DetroiTug on Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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