Nyitra I

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Lopez Mike
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by Lopez Mike » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:43 am

An engine driven pump is the most efficient. A flywheel pump comes next but well down the list. Then a reciprocating steam driven pump. Injectors are all over the place depending on a lot of factors but the smaller they are, the more heat they waste. If you can burn your fingers on it, it's wasting fuel.

The reason a flywheel pumps beats a reciprocating steam pump is that the recip pump operates at full stroke all of the time. You wouldn't run your main engine that way. Why run a pump that way. A flywheel pump can run at some reasonable cutoff thus getting some use out of the expansive properties of the steam. Probably the biggest disadvantage of a flywheel pump is that is small sizes they tend to be singles and thus not self starting. That's why Oilking runs his recip pump off of a point at the desired water level. If the level is too high, the pump gets water and slows down and probably stops. When the water level drops, the pump eventually clears its throat and starts pumping. Convenient but not that efficient.

Even when running on fresh water bodies, having a condenser and hotwell is so much easier on your boiler. You have some decent control over the water chemistry. And if you get the size of the condenser halfway right, you are not dumping cold water in your boiler. Also, with a hotwell you can have a float to regulate your water levels.

Fussing with your power plant when underway is dumb. And, given the human resources in my boat, it leads to periodic crises! Whup! The water is low. Whup! The depth is shallow. Whup! The fire needs tending. Whup! Where did that stupid jet ski come from? Every thing you can automate without decreasing reliability is great.
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cyberbadger
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:26 am

I appreciate all of the feedwater suggestions, but I'm going to do it the way I've outlined. 2 injectors (primary) and 1 steam pump. No hotwell or floats switches. The injectors will heat the water, and the steam pump I have has a diverting valve inside it that can be used to use steam to heat the water. As far as water chemistry - I will have filter for large particles - and Terlyn LSB for boiler treatment.

This is going to be a fairly large barge 24 ft long with deck available everywhere - I probably will never run it by myself. Always someone steering and either directly or indirectly controlling the engines - and someone tending the boiler and engines.

This is the Nyitra I -- I like to learn some things first hand. I can either modify it or make a new Nyitra II with what I've learned.

Some advice I will take, but some I've already made my own decisions. That doesn't mean I won't come back later and tell you folks were right. ;) But it could also mean I come back later and tell you folk - you know what it worked fine for my launch. :lol:

The Nyitra I is not meant to be pretty, efficient, etc. But it's a launch that I put together. If it floats and moves at 4-6mph - I will be satisfied.

-CB
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by DetroiTug » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:24 pm

One considerable loss with a condensing system is the inability to exhaust up the stack at true engine exhaust pressure and velocity. Exhausting up the stack transforms the firebox in to a forge. I have the tug set up where the exhaust can be directed out a thru-hull fitting below the water line or up the stack. I've tried it both ways and in between. Up the stack with the increased draft gained makes a huge difference. It's like having a stack blower running all the time. One of the reasons there is very little woodsmoke from the stack under way, it is achieving near complete combustion. Of course, if the boiler has enough heat surface for the engine, none of that matters. :D

Incidentally, exhausting through the hull directly in to the cold lake water is noisy - the cold water shocking the steam.

The steampump can be throttled the same way an engine can be throttled through a steam valve. Also, by adjusting the linkage, the stroke can be shortened as well. But, not in the same way a Stephenson linkage does it. There is full admission from one end of the stroke to the other. The point is it doesn't have to be ran "balls out" all of the time.

-Ron
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by cyberbadger » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:44 pm

DetroiTug wrote:directed out a thru-hull fitting below the water line
I was going to ask a general question about this. How do folks deal/not deal with the little amount of steam oil in the exhaust? Why isn't that considered dumping oil??

-CB
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by steamdon-jr » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:14 pm

I have not seen any mention of a hand pump? do you plan on having a hand pump?, some meets that have a safety inspection will require it.
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by barts » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:16 pm

cyberbadger wrote:
DetroiTug wrote:directed out a thru-hull fitting below the water line
I was going to ask a general question about this. How do folks deal/not deal with the little amount of steam oil in the exhaust? Why isn't that considered dumping oil??

-CB
Yup. One of the reasons I went to condensing operation. If you really manage things carefully, you can do as well or better than a 70's two stroke outboard... but it is very easy to overdo things. W/ a condenser, I don't worry about fouling the water - just my hot well & boiler :).

And yes, you _need_ a hand pump.

- Bart
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by gondolier88 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:58 pm

Unless required by state law where you are you absolutely do not need a hand pump- two injectors and a steam pump is just fine. Running non-condensing and using fresh water injectors with no engine-driven pump is the most reliable, quiet, effective means of putting water into your boiler. The plan you have is fine, and while most on here vociferous enough to dismiss your way of doing it, I might add that 90% of all inland freshwater steam boats/ships built in the UK over the last 120 years or so follow the lines you are taking.

Run the exhaust up the funnel- put a silencer in line before the funnel with a small drain leading into the ash pan, this takes care of any oil/condensate and stops water droplet carrying over and onto passengers. It also stops a lot of pulsing of the exhaust, which at low revs creates a more constant flow of exhaust steam up the funnel, aiding combustion.

Two injectors, of the quality you mention, are more than reliable enough to provide feedwater- make sure you have a strainer on the water inlet, and try if you can to put at least two sea-cocks in- one for one injector and the steam pump, one for the other injector.

If you are on soft water, with good clarity then a blow down on every steam is a desirable, if on hard with lots of dissolved solids then a low pressure blowdown on first firing up, and one at the end of steaming would be recommended.

The injectors you have should feed first time every time, make sure the pipework is right and they won't let you down. Incidentally, if you are on the bad quality sort of water mentioned above, soaking the injectors in a de-calcifying solution such as used in dishwashers can often clean them up- but otherwise leave them be.

I can't wait to see what should be a very tidy, reliable and quiet steam plant on a boat that should return hours of hassle free steaming.

Greg
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by barts » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:36 pm

gondolier88 wrote:Unless required by state law where you are you absolutely do not need a hand pump- two injectors and a steam pump is just fine. Running non-condensing and using fresh water injectors with no engine-driven pump is the most reliable, quiet, effective means of putting water into your boiler. The plan you have is fine, and while most on here vociferous enough to dismiss your way of doing it, I might add that 90% of all inland freshwater steam boats/ships built in the UK over the last 120 years or so follow the lines you are taking.

Run the exhaust up the funnel- put a silencer in line before the funnel with a small drain leading into the ash pan, this takes care of any oil/condensate and stops water droplet carrying over and onto passengers. It also stops a lot of pulsing of the exhaust, which at low revs creates a more constant flow of exhaust steam up the funnel, aiding combustion.

Two injectors, of the quality you mention, are more than reliable enough to provide feedwater- make sure you have a strainer on the water inlet, and try if you can to put at least two sea-cocks in- one for one injector and the steam pump, one for the other injector.

If you are on soft water, with good clarity then a blow down on every steam is a desirable, if on hard with lots of dissolved solids then a low pressure blowdown on first firing up, and one at the end of steaming would be recommended.

The injectors you have should feed first time every time, make sure the pipework is right and they won't let you down. Incidentally, if you are on the bad quality sort of water mentioned above, soaking the injectors in a de-calcifying solution such as used in dishwashers can often clean them up- but otherwise leave them be.

I can't wait to see what should be a very tidy, reliable and quiet steam plant on a boat that should return hours of hassle free steaming.

Greg
W/o a hand pump, you _MUST_ make sure that either you only use the boat where you have city water pressure available, or you never forget to top off the boiler before either leaving such an area or shutting down for the night.

Having a way to put water into the boiler w/o having steam up seems pretty obviously to be a good idea. Of course, I suppose you could remove the safety and pour water in from a bucket before lighting a fire if push came to shove, but anything that requires wrenches seems wrong, somehow.

A hand water pump is two check valves and a piece of 5/8 stainless or bronze running in a piece of 1/2" brass pipe w/ a o-ring or two. It is far simpler, cheaper and less likely to get out of order than an second injector.

I've launched my boat in all sorts of places, gone camping in various remote areas w/o power or water, etc. If you want to do this (a pontoon boat would be capital for exploring deltas, etc.) plan on being self-sufficient.

- Bart
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by DetroiTug » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:16 am

That's the catch 22 about oils for steaming. Real steam cylinder oil like that made by Green Velvet - the Sapon oils are mineral oil and tallow the latter being animal fat. They are both water soluble which means they cannot be used in a condensing system because there is no way to separate the oil from the water because they mix.

Regular motor oil types must be used so they can be isolated form one another in the hotwell or oil separator etc. Otherwise they wind up in the boiler. So the remedy is often a one shot oiler. Resulting in the engine only getting oil occasionally.

In a day of steaming I use about a pint of oil which winds up on the inside of the stack, and has to be removed periodically. It's a layer of oil and dust. Not a pleasant job.

-Ron
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Re: Nyitra I

Post by fredrosse » Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:04 am

I have investigated ordinary motor oils, and the great majority of them cannot be separated from condensate. I thought that "Non-Detergent" motor oils would separate from water, but they do not. Spoke to Gulf Refinery engineers, and they told me that real non-detergent mineral oils will separate from water. However the motor oils labeled "Non-Detergent" are not actually non-detergent, but they are various motor oils that miss their specification numbers in some respect, so they are just labeled "non-detergent" and sold at lower prices. As far as years of study has indicated, the only oils that can be separated from water are pure mineral oils, otherwise known as "straight mineral oil".

The compounded steam oils, containing a few percent tallow, will never separate from hotwell water. The result will always be oil in the feedwater. Oil in the feedwater runs the serious risk of baking oil onto the water side of boiler tubes, which can form an insulating layer on the tube, and result in overheating of the boiler metal.

The other side of the story is that compounded steam cylinder oils are very effective in cylinder lubrication, compared to straight mineral oils which are more easily washed from cylinder surfaces by wet steam. If you use mineral oil for cylinder lubrication, then you need to inject much more oil to get effective lubrication. The oil can however be caught in the hotwell filter material, and can be precluded from entering the boiler.

Green Velvet Steam Cylinder Oil comes as "Compounded" or "Straight Mineral Oil". The compounded oil is virtually impossible to "un-mix" with water, the only way to separate the oil from the water is to boil away the water, the oil remains, but we cannot do that on a steamboat. Check your oil by mixing it with some hot boiling water, put it into the blender, then see if it can be separated from the water with your poly material. This is a good test to see it separation can be obtained. However it may cause separation from your wife if you use her blender or her stove/kitchen for that matter! If the oil separates, the water will be clear, oil floating on top of the water. This water is OK to feed the boiler. If the water stays milky, the separation does not work.

The only other place I know where one can find real, unadulterated mineral oil, is at veterinary supply stores. It is however somewhat expensive, being for animal treatment.
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