Complete Newb Checking-In!

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Anne from Little Britan
Anne from Little Britan
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Complete Newb Checking-In!

Post by csonics » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:50 am

Posted on behalf of stevey_frac:

stevey_frac
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:57 pm Post subject: Complete Newb Checking-In!
Hi Guys!

I started lurking around here for a bit, and i'm seriously considering having a bit of fun with steam, so I figured I mind as well say "Hi!".

I first got interested in steam engines when a I saw neighbour firing up his Steam tractor. I couldn't give you all the spec, but it was a massive single cylinder engine, firetube boiler, and weighed in at over 20 tons.

I talked with him for a while, and then he let me drive it! I was hooked. It was just awesome. He's since passed away, so I don't think i'll have another opportunity.

I started looking into model steam engines, and stumbled across a youTube video of a steam launch cruising around. It just looks like an absolute blast!

Anyways, I'm kind of half designing a little steam engine. Nothing really fancy, no reversing gear, no variable valve lead/lag, just a two cylinder. For an engine to play around with, i'm going to make it a 1" bore, 4" stroke to keep the RPM low. Piston valving. Gonna do it all out of stainless steel, since it's small, and the steel should hold up. The version i want to put in the boat probably won't be stainless.

For the boiler, I want to do a monotube boiler. They're safe, they steam up fast, they're simple, they don't involve a lot of welding, and I am a systems and computing engineer, so i kind of want to write a controller to run the boiler for me. It would be wood fired, and i'd control the heat by stepping up and down some DC fans. Effectively, you would run the system with the 'throttle open', and vary power output by varying the heat out of the boiler.

I'm not sure how any of this will work. I'm probably throwing around a lot of misinformed exuberance, if so, please speak up! I'd rather learn from your experience, the make a lot of mistakes on my own.

-Steve
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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject:
Welcome to the group Steve. You and your computer are a much needed addition-but do you really think you can run a steam engine/boiler with a computer?? I have enough trouble just typing this note! Den
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stevey_frac
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject:
Hi Farmer!

I can certainly try to run it with my computer! I'm thinking the controller will be really hard to tune because different wood is gonna have different heating values, and I'm not always gonna load the firebox the sameway. That being said, fire still needs air to breath, so if i can control the air, i can come up with some way to keep the fire undercontrol.

I was thinking i'd aim for a max flue temperature, before the heat exchanger of 1400 degrees F. That would give me a little bit of breathing room for the metalurgical uncertainties I might face.

I'm building the engine to be able to take very high steam pressure, which is why i'm keeping the bore small....


and i'm rambling... I'll stop now.
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Maltelec
Site Admin


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 156
Location: Cumbria, UK
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:11 am Post subject:
Controlling the boiler via a computer is out of my area, but controlling it with simple electronics is really straight forward. You simply need a sensor to sense something and a feedback circuit to alter something.

e.g. if it were a gas boiler you simply need a pressure sensor and a gas regulator (driven by a servo). Then as the pressure approaches the maximum the gas is slowly reduced.

Getting into more complicated electronics, you would want to shift the range so the gas is controlled through the highest 15psi for instance, so at 185psi the gas is on full and as it approaches 200psi (for a 200psi working pressure) the gas is linearly reduced to a pilot light at 200psi.

I would imagine for anyone who knows how to program a computer with a voltage reference input and output, controlling a boiler by the computer would be really really simple.
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stevey_frac
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject:
Hi Maltec,

What your talking about is a what's refered to as a proportional controller. In your example, 200 PSI is the set point. As more 'error' is introduced, there is a response proportional to the error. In your example you would set up the controller coefficient so that at 15 PSI error, it is going full bore.

What I would use would be a full PID controller. This controller has a response proportional to error as above,

However it also has an error integrator component, and an error derivative component.

Basically, if I set the system at 200 PSI, and the system has been sitting at 195 PSI for a while, it will slowly turn up the heat, to get it to sit at exactly 200 PSI, which is the integrator.

Ther derivative component will look at the rate of change of error, and try to throw the controller in the other way.

For example, if the pressure is sitting at 150 PSI and is starting to spike, even though the set point is at 200 PSI, the controller would start pulling back on the fuel to avoid over shooting the 200 PSI setpoint. For the other side of it, If the system is at 205 PSI, and is falling rapidly, the system will add more heat even though we are above the setpoint.

In this manner the controller has perfect steady state control, and nicely controls overshoot, and undershoot. It's a good fit, and it all fits in about 15 lines of code. I've written a few of them.

The problem is the sensors themselves. I've yet to find a steam pressure sensor with a reasonable temperature and pressure limit at a reasonable price. It seems they're either built for house hot water heaters, or power plants! More poking around will be required.

On the engine building front, i'm gonna call up the local metal supply store here this afternoon and order my block and conecting rods.

Looks like my 1 cyclinder is gonna end up running about $80 in parts, which isn't bad. I'm building it with a max theoretical design pressure of 500 PSI, and i'm gonna lengthen the stroke some more. The stroke is gonna be upped to 4"! Hopefully that will keep revs down, as I don't think I can build a really well balanced crank.

Cheers!
Steve
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farmerden
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Shawnigan Lake,B.C.
Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject:
Goodness are you two on the same planet as me? When someone mentioned new blood is this what they meant?? OK OK now comes the tough part- you'll have to teach me what you just said! keep up the good work! Den
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P.F.Cuthbert@Classicfm.ne
Steam on Deck


Joined: 24 Nov 2007
Posts: 52
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: Ahhh! Steam radio!
Dear Stevey

Great to hear that you are thinking of bringing electronics into this area.

If you are thinking about a monotube and have no experience of them yet, could I make a suggestion? (I need to slip in a comment here before anyone else does - this may not be a wholly unbiased suggestion!)

Why not join the SBA and get your hands on some of the back numbers of Funnel magazine. There are a number of articles on monotube boilers which may be of use. I cannot give you chapter and verse off the top of my head, but they are all indexed, and most back numbers are still available. Cost of membership is still only 18GBP (about 29.5USD currently). More details on the Association Website (http://www.steamboat.org.uk/).

There are also a number of SBA members who are working on monotubes. I discovered this as I am in the middle of sorting out a grumble from a member that the current SBA rules appear to exclude the use of anything but the smallest of such boilers. The "great and good" are about to discuss that issue and do something about it if the complaint is justified.

Regards

Pete
(SBA Hon Sec.)
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Maltelec
Site Admin


Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 156
Location: Cumbria, UK
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:56 am Post subject:
Steve, I find the local scrap yard gets most of the industrial plant's scrap - 1/2 of it has never been used!

This included a very nice screw-in thermocouple, about 1" diameter and 3 foot long. Rated to very high pressure and temperature.
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stevey_frac
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:55 am Post subject:
Nice Find!!

I'd love to stumble across something like that!
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stevey_frac
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject:
Hello again guys,

I've been looking around a bit, and coming to the conclusion that legally, and practically, I can't build my own boiler.

As far as I know, all boilers in Canada that operate at over 15 PSI are required by law to have registered plans stamped by an engineer, yearly inspections, and must be welded by a steamfitter. There is no exception.

I've been considering getting the 15 - 40 HP Ofeldt boiler plans from Reliable steam co. (http://members.pioneer.net/~carlich/RSE/RSEboilers.html)

and paring it with the Tiny Power Twin M 10 HP engine (http://www.tinypower.com/store2.php?crn ... how_detail)

And putting it into a boat I make myself. i was considering the 'salty' from reliable steam.

You can purchase the Tiny Power engines fully built, and ready to run. It is rated at 10 hp at 150 PSI, but that boiler is able to put out 200 PSI. The boiler would be modified to burn solid fuel, something Mr. Carlich has assured me is possible. The reason why it looks slightly oversized, is because maintaining pressure while wood fired will be more difficult then the regular design that calls for it being oil fired.

So far, it's looking like an engine will cost $7k, a boiler $7k, and a boat will be around 5k. It's not a cheap hobby you guys have!!

I'd kinda like some thoughts on the engine/boiler hull stuff. I'm not sure if the engine will be to big/small for the boat.

If you guys have any sources for boiler or boats that you'd recommend, please let me know! I wouldn't mind getting some used stuff, but it seems hard to come by.

Thanks,
Steve
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stevey_frac
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject:
Now i'm actually not so sure about this.

I can't find any evidence to support that fact that small pleasure steam craft require certified equipment and operators. Perhaps I should put in an email to .... someone. I'm not even sure who...

The TSSA covers land based stuff. And there is a Steam Traction Operators guide, then 4 classes of power engineer.

But nothing anywhere on small steam boats. Just large commercial stuff.
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DetroiTug
Warming the Engine


Joined: 19 Jul 2009
Posts: 72
Location: Outside Detroit
Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:28 pm Post subject:
Hi Steve,

Sounds like your plan is similar to mine.

For the Salty built as drawn, a single M should be plenty, that's what I've been told by many.

The M Twin is too big. I'm building the Salty in steel and scaling the hull up by a factor of.1 or 10%. This makes the hull 22 feet long and 96" wide. Some are still saying I have too much engine. But I'll be running about a 45 sq ft VFT boiler ( I think my calcs are off). So keeping in credo with whole tugboat design philosophy, a little more engine than necessary should be fine. The Salty built in wood and 20 foot as drawn, the 5hp M is supposed to be plenty. The plan calls for the Reliable 5hp.

The simplest boiler is just a monotube as far as I know. It's just a bunch of tubing coiled in a drum with a small pressure vessel for a steam dome. If my funds were more limited, and wanted a fast firing boiler and probably the safest, the monotube seems the way to go. They have a few drawbacks, but for ease of build and cost, they are quickly outweighed it seems.

Used engines are plentiful, good used professionally built boilers are scarce as hens teeth. If you're looking be patient. The one I have is really larger than I wanted, but when I seen it, it was kind of a "now or never" purchase. I've been watching the auction sites for years, the only ones that show up are either way too small, or so old I'd be scared to death of it to use. It would be very easy to spend thousands on a used boiler, and still not have one. I still don't know what I have exactly. I'm going to get it inspected by a state inspector and stamped hopefully.

I don't know a lot about this hobby, but I'm getting a quick education. One thing I've learned and I learned it twice, is don't buy engines that are only partially built. Only buy engines used that are in running condition. If someone threw in the towel somewhere a long the way on the build, it can be rest assured, some of the components, if not all are spoiled. That is why they quit it. What I've gathered from my experience, your mileage may vary. The twin I'm working on now has been that way. If it was already machined, it had to be repaired. If they didn't leave enough stock to take it to stock dims, I had to throw the part away, and buy new. For what I have invested at this point, I could have bought a new kit and started fresh. An abandoned build is simply not worth the headaches. Having said all that, I'm very happy with my engine, just don't want to have to build another one like that.

Good luck with your project. I'll start a thread on the hull when I start it, which should be soon I hope. And I'm doing some articles for Steamboating magazine. So check there too.

-Ron
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stevey_frac
Lighting the Boiler


Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 8:24 am Post subject:
That's AWESOME that your going to build a salty!

Please post a thread of your hull when she starts. I read your Tiny Power M Twin thread with interest.

I'm still doing a lot of research. I like the fact that I think the salty would be capable in slightly rougher water then most of the steam launches. Not that you'd want to go out in a storm or anything, but capable.

My other option is getting a boat built for me by the Tiny Power boat division.

It would cost 11k for the 23' Fantail. I think i can build salty for a lot less then that. It's just a lot of investment in time. Which is ok.
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artemis
Just Starting Out


Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 18
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject:
Some suggestions to your enthusiasm:
1. Get a copy of "Steamboats & Modern Steam Launches" from Elliott bay Boathouse: http://www.steamlaunch.com - if you own no other book, you can build a steam boat from this one.
2. Join a hobby steamboat organization. The SBA is probably the largest in the world and their magazine "the Funnel" is well balanced: http://www.steamboat.org.uk The International Steamboat Society: http://www.steamboating.org has an excellent links page on their website and publishes a bi-monthly magazine, "Steamboating Magazine", which primarily contains technical articles (some of the contributors to this forum have published articles there).
3. Keep up the questions (and responses) here. This is the best and most informative forum for hobby steamboating on the internet - bar none
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87gn@tahoe
Full Ahead


Joined: 23 Feb 2009
Posts: 148
Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA
Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject:
artemis wrote:
Some suggestions to your enthusiasm:
1. Get a copy of "Steamboats & Modern Steam Launches" from Elliott bay Boathouse: http://www.steamlaunch.com - if you own no other book, you can build a steam boat from this one.
2. Join a hobby steamboat organization. The SBA is probably the largest in the world and their magazine "the Funnel" is well balanced: http://www.steamboat.org.uk The International Steamboat Society: http://www.steamboating.org has an excellent links page on their website and publishes a bi-monthly magazine, "Steamboating Magazine", which primarily contains technical articles (some of the contributors to this forum have published articles there).
3. Keep up the questions (and responses) here. This is the best and most informative forum for hobby steamboating on the internet - bar none


What Ron said
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Tunneltug
Just Starting Out


Joined: 05 Nov 2009
Posts: 4
Location: Coventry UK
Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject:
Hi Steve,

I'm new to this forum but have read about your project with great interest. I started my boat project about six years ago and like you I had a figure in my head of what it was all going to cost, about £12K at the time. Well that was six years ago and I'm still learning, the boiler alone has cost more that the original £12K budget and the whole boat is going to cost in excess of ten time that. All I can suggest is to be strict with yourself, don't let the project control you, keep it simple for your first boat and then progress from there.

The other members have suggested joining clubs like the SBA, I joined about the time I started my project and the information available through their magazine is great but also with the large number of members that the SBA boasts the contacts you can make are very useful. I was looking for a suitably large boiler for my boat for a couple of years, it was looking like I was going to have to order a custom built new boiler but one day out of the blue a SBA member phoned me and put me onto the ideal boiler which although it has cost £12K+ to buy & rebuild it was a fraction of the cost of a new one. This sort of networking has been a great benefit to me.

Best wishes

Keith
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